Forged or stock removal Let's dispell the myths

[Mark Williams]

I like forging for the freedom I have in moving the metal to whatever shape I want.

I would not even bother trying to make say .. a pipe hawk by stock removal.

And JF is reading this so be nice

 

[barrabas74]

Is S30V easier to sharpen than ATS34? I have had some cool little Benchmade folders and once that factory edge goes both me and my brother have been hard pressed to get it back into that condition. I'mnot sure what they are made of, but my brother has had a simiar experience with his Henckels stainless kitchen knives......even with professiona sharpening, That has never been an issue for me with carbon blades. By the way.....I also hate stainless steel guns and synthetic stocks. Anyone who ends up with rust on their knife or gun only has themselves to blame.

I gotta agree with you on some points, as far as holding an edge especially with rough wood work. Nothing I have can beat my carbon blades. Now my hunting knife is D2 but thats a special steel to me. I agree with you on rust....I have several carbon blades, I keep a light coat of oil on em and out of leather sheaths in storage and I have never had a problem. Guns too man, Sigarms and kimber with wood stocks for me, no rust problems there either. If taken care of there shouldnt be a rust problem. I really like the overall feel of most forged blades due to the tapering of the blade that you dont see in many stock removed blades.

 

[G3]

But you lose the whole potential of the 3-D look from the distortion of the layers when you forge Random and single twist Damascus.
Unless it's maybe a very pattern-specific Damascus that can't be distorted, I think stock removal of Damascus is a friggin' disgrace to the Maker who put his time into making it in the first place.

I think we can get into a whole other discussion with that topic. Sorry for the tangent.

 

[Larrin]

The farther you forge down stainless the more the carbide size is reduced, stainless steels benefit more from forging than carbon steels. This is enhanced when making stainless damascus, you're forging individual layers down to very small sizes.

Oh, and all steels are forged, anyway.

 

[Phillip Patton]

Oh, and all steels are forged, anyway.

Good point.

 

[Fakeducci]

The farther you forge down stainless the more the carbide size is reduced, stainless steels benefit more from forging than carbon steels. This is enhanced when making stainless damascus, you're forging individual layers down to very small sizes.

Oh, and all steels are forged, anyway.

yah, what kinda forge are you talking about a 100 ton forge? Do you think that a stainless would benefit from an air hammer or hand held hammer? I agree with Bailey, I doubt that SS will benefit much from it. If you have the specific data bring it on...

 

[Joss]

I like the idea that less material is wasted when forging. I find this more elegant. Of course, to become a proficient bladesmith requires more failed trials than to be a grinder, so maybe overall most material is wasted...

I do love the idea that you can take a spherical bock of steel and turn it into anything you want. You're not limited by the shape of the original piece. Of course, this is not very inmportant nowadays, but again I find this concept more elegant.

Most bladesmith do their own heat treatment, and those who research this thoroughly can develop a mastery of grain refinement and hardenability that most grinder will never get into. On the other hand, hand-forging a blade offers so many opportunities to screw up the knife, it boggles the mind...

 

[Phillip Patton]

I've always found the "You're not limited by the shape of the original piece." argument difficult to understand. How is a stock removal maker limited? Just get a bigger piece of steel, and you can make anything you want from it...
Fact is, I can grind much more complex shapes than I can forge. Of course, it irks me to see all the metal dust on the floor...

 

[Larrin]

yah, what kinda forge are you talking about a 100 ton forge? Do you think that a stainless would benefit from an air hammer or hand held hammer? I agree with Bailey, I doubt that SS will benefit much from it. If you have the specific data bring it on...

I don't think carbon steels benefit at all. Even a reduction from 1/4" to 1/8" reduces carbide size considerably in high alloy steels, it is possible that forging bevels would reduce carbide size more, it doesn't matter to me, we forge stainless damascus and stainlesses that are unavailable in flat bar, but we grind blades....

 

[Larrin]

I've always found the "You're not limited by the shape of the original piece." argument difficult to understand. How is a stock removal maker limited? Just get a bigger piece of steel, and you can make anything you want from it...
Fact is, I can grind much more complex shapes than I can forge. Of course, it irks me to see all the metal dust on the floor...

That's why it's good to find a friend with a power hammer, if you have some steel in round bar, get it forged down.

And for those that say that forging is faster than stock removal, I disagree. If an accomplished forger and stock removal guy had a race making a knife, a stock removal guy would win every time.

 

[Joss]

Phillip, anything a grinder can do with a big piece of steel, a bladesmith can do too. But if all you have is a small piece of steel of some weird shape, then only the bladesmith can make knives out of it. I agree that it is not a big plus in the modern world where steel is widely available.

 

[Larrin]

I don't understand why forging can't just be appreciated for continuing a lost art.

 

[Phillip Patton]

Phillip, anything a grinder can do with a big piece of steel, a bladesmith can do too.

Given infinite time and skill, yes. But at some point it's just a whole lot more economical to grind it.

Do you have any idea how long it would take me to forge this knife to shape?

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/ppatton/knifepics/unfinished.jpg

A long time. But band-sawing and grinding goes much quicker.

BTW, that knife was forged from 1.5" round stock, but it wasn't forged to shape.

 

[Phillip Patton]

That's why it's good to find a friend with a power hammer, if you have some steel in round bar, get it forged down.

And for those that say that forging is faster than stock removal, I disagree. If an accomplished forger and stock removal guy had a race making a knife, a stock removal guy would win every time.

I have a power hammer, and forge most of my knives from round stock. I don't forge because of any real or imagined performance benefits, but because I can get the materials cheaper in round bar than flat stock, and because I enjoy forging more than grinding.
With complex knives, with lot's of curves, I just forge the bar into the thickness I need, the width I want, and usually forge in the distal and tang taper. Most of my designs are influenced but grinders, like Bob Loveless and Walter Brend, so the above technique is how I combine the two worlds of grinding and forging.
Simpler blade shapes like bowies, I forge entirely to shape, including edge bevels.
Great thread! I have to go...

 

[Kohai999]

Got your helmet on yet?

I would disagree, if fact take the opposite.

Who many stock removal knives don't resemble a Loveless model?

Have you got YOUR helmet on, Kevin? TONS!

Start with W.W. Cronk and work your way forward.

Here is a name for you: Steven Licata.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Larrin]

Have you got YOUR helmet on, Kevin? TONS!

Start with W.W. Cronk and work your way forward.

Here is a name for you: Steven Licata.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Definitely, I would even take the opposite opinion: that more forged blades are out of the same mold.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I can appreciate some of the fine knives from the guys that grind N shine but I prefer to heat N beat.

Two reason I forge.

 

[jdm61]

I've always found the "You're not limited by the shape of the original piece." argument difficult to understand. How is a stock removal maker limited? Just get a bigger piece of steel, and you can make anything you want from it...
Fact is, I can grind much more complex shapes than I can forge. Of course, it irks me to see all the metal dust on the floor...

but can you efficiently grind an "S" guard?

 

[jdm61]

That's why it's good to find a friend with a power hammer, if you have some steel in round bar, get it forged down.

And for those that say that forging is faster than stock removal, I disagree. If an accomplished forger and stock removal guy had a race making a knife, a stock removal guy would win every time.

Except for that whole "send it to Bos and wait two weeks" thing...lol

 

[A C Richards]

As mentioned before, If you want to do sole authorship work and want to use Damascus then you must forge. I like to forge because i love to make Damascus. I also like to use steel that is not readily available in flat stock. It is cheaper in round also but if you take into consideration the time it takes to forge it flat then the cost will probably be more if the steel is available in flat bar. if you are into recycling then leaf springs and coil springs can be forged. Grinding a leaf spring can be a real pain and making a blade from coil is just not feasable without forging. Is there a magical superiority of either? No. Just a personal preference. Moving hot steel for me is also theriputic. I can take a lot of agressions out by hammering a stubborn medium to shape. I have done orders for those who must have stainless but do not like working in this medium. Just personal preference. As far as creativity, take a look at some makers doing mosaic damascus. Shane Taylor, Tom Ferry, Rick Dunkerly, etc. The basic knife shape is meant to cut. There are very few new and unusual real cutters out there. What is done with the materials however can make the difference.

Chuck