Forged, Stock Removal.......Carbon, Stainless...folder, fixed blade

[Kohai999]

We are having a good discussion in another thread, so it seems worthy to try for another.

As someone who loves knives, thought to post my thoughts about methods of making knives and the steels used.

I don't have a preference of forged vs stock removal knives per se.

Generally for me, if a knife is carbon steel or damascus, I like it to be forged. I especially like it when the piece is sole authorship and the damascus is made by the knife maker. I have and will continue to find these types of knives, regardless of being folders or fixed blades, to be more desirable and worth a premium for the time and effort that it takes to produce. That is, making the damascus and forging it to shape, then cleaning everything up on a grinder is much more time consuming(and expensive considering equipment required) than BUYING a billet of damascus and simply grinding it down.

At this point in my collecting, almost all of the carbon steel fixed blade knives that I own are damascus blades, and the vast majority are sole authorship

I like stainless for the majority of my folding knives. I'm one of the few it seems that does not care for the patina that carbon steel knives develop. People who say "It's gonna develop patina, just deal with it", I don't get that, nor do I accept it. ALL of my carbon steel Japanese style blades are cutters, and not one has patina. We are talking about blades that are exposed to high levels of salt and alkaline and are still shiny and bright. It has to do with the method of finishing and method of care more than anything else, but we can get into that later. Stainless blades perform quite nicely, hold the edge and don't rust much. I also like stainless damascus and tend towards Devin Thomas damascus because Devin is an originator and a friend. His pattern development is fantastic.

Any part of the handle that is reactive(carbon steel) imo needs to be hidden or treated. Bare carbon tangs will rust/patina. If you like that, fine....but if this is a piece you hope to sell for top dollar at some point in the future.....it better go to the maker for a "spa treatment" before you do so. Almost all buyers do not like rust. By "treated" I mean blued or coated. Take your pick.

It would be an interesting discussion hopefully, but my collection is almost evenly distributed between fixed blades and folding knives, and has been almost from day one. Some makers that I collect don't make fixed blades and vise versa. A mistake that I made early were thinking that a piece from a maker known for a particular genre(a fixed blade from someone who specializes in folders) would automatically be more desirable and sellable was proven to be incorrect time and time again. It's more dependent upon the maker's market position and "hotness" than anything else.

A word about kitchen knives. There is a well known maker who produces fantastic carbon steel kitchen knives that perform wonderfully. I got one, used it and kept it looking awesome. Had a party over Labor Day. Buddy of mine cleaned up the kitchen, and I didn't get a chance to review his work. 1 week goes by and I take a look at the knives. Don't know what he did, but that carbon blade got BURNED(as in chemically burned, not heat wise), and buffing wouldn't take it out. Luckily, Tim Wright made me a S30v utility and delivered it the day that I discovered the issue and he got himself a gently used, wonderfully built utility knife in carbon steel and I got one in stainless to replace it.

I won't buy another carbon steel kitchen knife.....ever....the REQUIRED maintenance to keep them shiny and bright is not worth it to me. There are many chef's and cooks who love carbon steel for their knives and they are welcome to them.

Love to hear all the thoughts out there. Realizing that this is a subject that folks are passionate about, try to keep it friendly!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[john april]

i have enjoyed reading the other thread. i am not much of a collector, so i did not have anything to add. some thoughts on this one:
i as well do not have a preference for forged or stock removal. i used to be under the assumption that the forged blade had better performance and magical qualities. when i found out that was not true, i did not feel it was required as a maker. i have done both, but its almost all stock removal in the past 6 years. i honestly would rather tell someone i did it on a hammer/anvil with red hot steel like a blacksmith, because it has a "coolness" factor that does not exist with stock removal. i do not make my own steel or damascus, i have to buy it. beyond that, everything is sole authorship. thats all i have going for me.

i like stainless too for my user knives, its almost the obvious best choice. i should get my butt in gear and start using it. when i was at the ashokan seminar in sept i met this famous knife maker named matthew gregory. he told me that with stainless, you can just about finish your knife and have your edge near its finished thickness before heat treat. i had no idea. that is very appealing. i have heard a saying "carbon steel takes a keener edge with more bite" is that an old wives tale?

i agree high carbon is not really the best for the kitchen if looks concern you. i never use the knives i make (1084/1095) on meat. it seems seems to stain them in about 12 seconds. looking forward to hearing others thoughts.

 

[betzner]

Steven, this is going to be another really good thread. Two real winners in a row, you be back on track.

I will wait to gather the few thoughts I can remember about steel before commenting. I will say, though, that in the last few years I have developed a regard for a few makers' Damascus (a very, very few - DHIII for one) and find I am willing to do the very little that is necessary to keep them in pristine condition. I can understand some collectors' desires for trying to bring back old and original methods (read this ABS).

But I think back about the work of Buster Warenski. He was basically responsible for bringing historical designs back to life in near-reproductions, and at the same time smart enough to know that progress trumps old steel. He never forged (though some who think they own a Damascus Warenski will dispute that).

Gimme stainless or Devin's stainless Damascus over non-stainless/forged any day, except for the very, very few exceptions I make to my rule of "No F'in Way!".

And then there is Nathan Carothers (CPK knives collab with Lorien Arnold), in a different category entirely. Those who are not aware of his work are behind the curve.

 

[JParanee]

I'm in

When it comes to blades everyone knows what I lean towards

I like more user oriented type blades

From a very young age I was drawn and fascinated by the art of the Japanese blade and the role it played in the warrior class of Japan

This fascination lead me to my love of the forged blade

I know that a forged blade does not make it a better performance blade but at times forging helps facilitate some of the performance characteristics that I tend to appreciate in a blade such as distal taper, tapered tangs, etc

My real love of fixed blades is usually along the lines of Japanese inspired pieces and Bowles

I enjoy training with blades and my true passion is for high performance pieces

For me a work of art in not a jewel encrusted art knife but a masterfully balanced and shaped work of functional art

For me 50 % of the package is the sheath or saya

If it is not a functional carry option it is a waste

Even a knife that I purchase that I will never carry it must have a proper carry system

On stock removal fixed blade pieces that are full tang if the piece does not have a tapered tang I'm not interested

As for fixed Blade steel I'm not interested in stainless unless it's a fishing knife or kitchen knife or a laminated piece

For folders I don't mind stainless and design and function in this genre is more important to me

I'm not a huge custom folder collector and to be honest there are so many very good production folders out there at reasonable prices that give the more utilitarian custom folders a run for their money

I do crave one of Don Hanson's folding works of bad assery

 

[Kohai999]

i like stainless too for my user knives, its almost the obvious best choice. i should get my butt in gear and start using it. when i was at the ashokan seminar in sept i met this famous knife maker named matthew gregory. he told me that with stainless, you can just about finish your knife and have your edge near its finished thickness before heat treat. i had no idea. that is very appealing. i have heard a saying "carbon steel takes a keener edge with more bite" is that an old wives tale?

i agree high carbon is not really the best for the kitchen if looks concern you. i never use the knives i make (1084/1095) on meat. it seems seems to stain them in about 12 seconds. looking forward to hearing others thoughts.

Carbon steel probably had more "bite" until Crucible started producing CPM steels. I'd say that the sharpening method has a lot to do with how "bitey" an edge is.

Gimme stainless or Devin's stainless Damascus over non-stainless/forged any day, except for the very, very few exceptions I make to my rule of "No F'in Way!".

And then there is Nathan Carothers (CPK knives collab with Lorien Arnold), in a different category entirely. Those who are not aware of his work are behind the curve.

As much as I love Devin's steel, using it for an integral made by stock removal would be a tremendous waste of very precious metal. Integral knives are one of the very cool types of knives that allow forging to really shine.

Nathan is an exceptional machinist and I have enjoyed our chats, and his posts on BFC, as well as owning two of his knives.

I know that a forged blade does not make it a better performance blade but at times forging helps facilitate some of the performance characteristics that I tend to appreciate in a blade such as distal taper, tapered tangs, etc

Forging allows a maker to use bars of steel that might otherwise not be ideally suited for knives due to thickness, produce the aforementioned integral knives more efficiently and we both share a love of distal taper and tapered tangs. Makers we have discussed over the years, and both own knives by are Burt Foster, Jason Knight and Nick Wheeler. Their work is truly world class. You have a nice collection of Samuel Lurquin's knives and I have some beauties from Russ Andrews and Kevin Cashen....the mutual admiration of forged fixed blades is something I very much enjoy about our friendship.

As for fixed Blade steel I'm not interested in stainless unless it's a fishing knife or kitchen knife or a laminated piece

For folders I don't mind stainless and design and function in this genre is more important to me

I'm not a huge custom folder collector and to be honest there are so many very good production folders out there at reasonable prices that give the more utilitarian custom folders a run for their money

I do crave one of Don Hanson's folding works of bad assery

I have a Devin Thomas damascus slicer and a Kramer 8" damascus chef's knife by Henckles....both in stainless, and both gifts from the makers. They are as different as possible, and both represent some of the best kitchen knives I have ever handled. While I agree with you about factory knives(ZT, I mean sheesh, simply amazing!), the J.W. Smith, R.J. Martin, and Brian Tighe knives I have owned and used the snot out of are PEERLESS. You should try a J.W. Smith folder sometime, you would really enjoy it.

Don's work is peerless as well, and truly a perfect melding of art and craft....fixed blades as well as folders. High tech, as well as down home traditional...he does it all.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[The Gopher]

I have nothing of substance to add to this thread other than to say thank you for starting it (and the other companion thread). As a newbie knife maker and enthusiast the amount of information to take in can be quite overwhelming, threads like this help to shorten the learning curve. I've taken all the newbie advice offered: smaller knives, stock removal, easy to HT steel (1084), etc, and I think it is paying off with each knife getting better (I think). I am ready to make an attempt at forging once I get everything in place. Once again, thank you for threads like this!

 

[HSC ///]

Steven have you tried a laminated steel blade in the kitchen?
I'm talking high carbon white steel core clad with Stainless outers.
I think you should, you are missing out if you don't

On stock removal fixed blade pieces that are full tang if the piece does not have a tapered tang I'm not interested

As for fixed Blade steel I'm not interested in stainless unless it's a fishing knife or kitchen knife or a laminated piece

agreed on the tapered tang, I've seen some really nice full tang knives but without the taper they look so blocky and production IMO

Since I started selling in Feb 2016 I've sold 28 knives, all forged laminated high carbon steel, all the repeat customers are outdoor users that value the edge of a high carbon steel in a working environment.

regards

 

[Jason Fry]

As a maker and a user, I have diverging opinions. For a using knife, I really like 1084. It sharpens up so well, and holds an edge. I understand what the other guy was saying regarding a keener edge. I can put the same angle and grit edge on a 154CM knife and a 1084 knife, and the 1084 knife will FEEL sharper. If I'm going to have to touch one up at deer camp, without my belt sander, I want 1084.

On the other hand, as a maker, it hurts my heart to think that I can hand off a 1084 knife to a customer and it is likely to never look as good ever again as it does in that moment I mail it out. I would much rather make my knives in stainless, so that in 40 years, the knife with my name on it still looks good. That's one of the only things I don't like about forging knives, is that it forces me to use steels that depend on the end user for care. Especially as I am turning away from grinding stainless for a bit so I can work toward JS... I forgot how much I dislike fighting rust and discoloration.

 

[Don Hanson III]

I love color on a knife blade. Either etched, Damascus or natural patina.

 

[butcher_block]

since i found a SS that is fine and easy to hone for a straight razor i really have not used much carbon steel less im asked to do so. im still waiting to see a XHP/PD1 or cpm154/3v mix make it more main stream for great looking user knives my turnoff for most of the SS damascus blends is the 303 in them

 

[Kohai999]

Steven have you tried a laminated steel blade in the kitchen?
I'm talking high carbon white steel core clad with Stainless outers.
I think you should, you are missing out if you don't

Hey Harbeer,

Hope to see you at Plaza!

Have used Murray Carter laminated kitchen knives in both blue and white steel.....like them enough, but the propensity of the edge and exposed carbon on the spine to patina/darken gave me fits and is not enough of an advantage to warrant use, so they have been relegate to backup status.

Have you tried the Dual Core Shun knives? I got a kiritsuke as a holiday gift and the performance as well as looks is flipping amazing!

No rust, slices like a lazer.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[HSC ///]

Hey Harbeer,

Hope to see you at Plaza!

Have used Murray Carter laminated kitchen knives in both blue and white steel.....like them enough, but the propensity of the edge and exposed carbon on the spine to patina/darken gave me fits and is not enough of an advantage to warrant use, so they have been relegate to backup status.

Have you tried the Dual Core Shun knives? I got a kiritsuke as a holiday gift and the performance as well as looks is flipping amazing!

No rust, slices like a lazer.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I have not tried the D/C Shun, why don't you bring me one....?
I'll see u at Plaza mate
hoping to get my hands on a Takeda friction in stag

 

[Don Hanson III]

Those are good lookin knives, STeven!

 

[Kohai999]

I have not tried the D/C Shun, why don't you bring me one....?
I'll see u at Plaza mate
hoping to get my hands on a Takeda friction in stag

Hi Harbeer,

I'll bring you this one. You can check it out at the show, and I'll bring you a Kramer by Shun Chef's knife that you can take home and play with. It has a SG2 core, which I have found works right up there with the best of stainless steels. Sometimes it can be a little chippy, but with the stainless steels being ground super thin and hardened north of 59 rc, that can be expected. See you soon!

Those are good lookin knives, STeven!

They are really something in person, Don. The production cutlery industry has learned almost too well from the custom cutlery industry and is now in DIRECT competition for the dollars. The kiritsuke streets at around $400.00. I don't think a 'smith could even produce the damascus for that price. As you know, when it is a handmade knife, I pay the price willingly for the right piece, but all makers should be on notice that the production side has upped the ante considerably.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Lorien]

I don't really discriminate, I like all different kinds of knives and all different kinds of materials.
With that being said, to me the design of a knife is everything. This includes material choices. If it all makes sense, then it's fine by me!

 

[Jon Brand]

Im a terrible cook, but I like shun knives in the kitchen. I even have the expensive shun kramer. Its pretty cool but a little big.

I've been carrying Hanson folders pretty much exclusively for the last ten years. My current one is the most used custom knife i've ever had. Same one i've posted years ago that went from green bark, to green smooth ivory, to elephant ivory. That thing is still going strong and gets used multiple times a day at work. I've had knives from many good makers and Don's always cut the best, even when dulled. I like the thin edge you can get with carbon steel and never had a stainless knife that felt razor sharp although they have to be out there. Tactical style knives are fun to open and close with those heavy blades, but they barely cut the most basic stuff in my experience. When I was in an accident and had to cut my bumper out Dons folder did the job. I never had such luck cutting plastic with even the most perfectly made JWS folder.

Do I worry about my humble collection of 20-25 CARBON steel damascus knives? Yes, but at least I know Don's still looks pretty decent after years of abuse (hard use).

 

[stezann]

Hi STeven, do you know how much north of 59 hrc are those blades? I understand the concerns about patina from the people who don't like it, and myself like to keep my carbon steel slipjoints under maintenance in order to avoid an ugly patina on them...i like only an even grey to develope on them.
In the kitchen it's different, the daily, pratical use doesn't marry with too much "babeing", but i accept a mottled patina for the stability of the 63 hrc, no chipping edge i get as working hardness from my carbon steels...those thin edges are just working horses, tools indeed.

Forging to me it's just too fun not to be included in my goofy workflow, and i understand that good forgers (not me yet) spare a lot of time getting there by forging close to shape their blades and fittings. The only intrinsic added value to a forged blade (imho) it is just that often somehow it shows that the shape of the knife was not once contained within the stock boundaries, design wise.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Im a terrible cook, but I like shun knives in the kitchen. I even have the expensive shun kramer. Its pretty cool but a little big.

I've been carrying Hanson folders pretty much exclusively for the last ten years. My current one is the most used custom knife i've ever had. Same one i've posted years ago that went from green bark, to green smooth ivory, to elephant ivory. That thing is still going strong and gets used multiple times a day at work. I've had knives from many good makers and Don's always cut the best, even when dulled. I like the thin edge you can get with carbon steel and never had a stainless knife that felt razor sharp although they have to be out there. Tactical style knives are fun to open and close with those heavy blades, but they barely cut the most basic stuff in my experience. When I was in an accident and had to cut my bumper out Dons folder did the job. I never had such luck cutting plastic with even the most perfectly made JWS folder.

Do I worry about my humble collection of 20-25 CARBON steel damascus knives? Yes, but at least I know Don's still looks pretty decent after years of abuse (hard use).

Thanks buddy! You pretty much nailed why I like carbon blades.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hi STeven, do you know how much north of 59 hrc are those blades? I understand the concerns about patina from the people who don't like it, and myself like to keep my carbon steel slipjoints under maintenance in order to avoid an ugly patina on them...i like only an even grey to develope on them.
In the kitchen it's different, the daily, pratical use doesn't marry with too much "babeing", but i accept a mottled patina for the stability of the 63 hrc, no chipping edge i get as working hardness from my carbon steels...those thin edges are just working horses, tools indeed.

Forging to me it's just too fun not to be included in my goofy workflow, and i understand that good forgers (not me yet) spare a lot of time getting there by forging close to shape their blades and fittings. The only intrinsic added value to a forged blade (imho) it is just that often somehow it shows that the shape of the knife was not once contained within the stock boundaries, design wise.

& This^^^ Except I do prefer a "ugly patina" on my slip joints.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Another aspect of choosing a forged blade is to also consider the maker's ability and experience to then DEAL! with the blade he has forged.
Forging a blade steel into a knife-like object is one thing. (Doing so renders that steel questionable on the atomic level until 'fixed')
Putting that steel back into a condition that is then usable as a knife separates many makers from the remainder.
One of the first things I ever heard when beginning my forging career - that is often overlooked - is that forging a piece of steel offers far more opportunities to RUIN that piece of steel than it does to do it any good.
Over in knife maker's discussion, you can read countless comments on how some guys treat their forged steel that will leave you shaking your head in wonder.
So, buyers/collectors, please keep buying our forged steel blades with simple carbon and San-mai and damascus, etc.
But please choose your makers wisely.
Some of us put in years of toil learning how to do the best we can with our steel.
Some don't care.