Forged, Stock Removal.......Carbon, Stainless...folder, fixed blade

I am going to interject my thoughts even though I am a nobody.
I happen to like carbon steel blades fixed or folding. I am probably not your average knife user. I tend to take care of my tools, but also don't mind patina . I feel carbon steel has a more organic look to it. It seems to have life where as stainless does not.
 
stezann said:
Hi STeven, do you know how much north of 59 hrc are those blades?
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61-62
stezann said:
I understand the concerns about patina from the people who don't like it, and myself like to keep my carbon steel slipjoints under maintenance in order to avoid an ugly patina on them...i like only an even grey to develope on them.
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Don't even care for an "even grey". I have some beautiful knives with hamon from makers like Don Fogg and some hand rubbed to 2000 grit sweeties by makers like Larry Fuegen, as well as a fantastic slipjoint by Don Hanson. What's the point(to me, anyway) of putting all the hard work into the finish if it is only to be obscured by patina? I suppose it's very Zen, but it is also a tremendous waste of time. Take it to 600 grit and buff it if that is to be the case. No, for me I want to appreciate that hard work, and that means maintaining the blades with extreme measures, which diminishes the enjoyment, which is why I own so few non Japanese style carbon steel blades any more. Maybe around 20, and I was up to around 50 at one point.
stezann said:
In the kitchen it's different, the daily, pratical use doesn't marry with too much "babeing", but i accept a mottled patina for the stability of the 63 hrc, no chipping edge i get as working hardness from my carbon steels...those thin edges are just working horses, tools indeed.

Forging to me it's just too fun not to be included in my goofy workflow, and i understand that good forgers (not me yet) spare a lot of time getting there by forging close to shape their blades and fittings. The only intrinsic added value to a forged blade (imho) it is just that often somehow it shows that the shape of the knife was not once contained within the stock boundaries, design wise.
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That Tim Wright utility knife I just go might change your opinion about carbon steel in the kitchen. To slice a tomato with it is to experience satori.....and it's hand rubbed to boot, with a convex edge!
v8r said:
I am going to interject my thoughts even though I am a nobody.
I happen to like carbon steel blades fixed or folding. I am probably not your average knife user. I tend to take care of my tools, but also don't mind patina . I feel carbon steel has a more organic look to it. It seems to have life where as stainless does not.
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Nobody is a nobody. Everyone brings unique experiences and perspectives.

While I understand the "romance" of carbon steel, I don't share it.

It's a steel, and it's much more highly reactive than stainless steel, and if you use it around ocean water, it will become eaten and dead. No bueno.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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I prefer non rusting metals. talonite/stellite is still my favorite for a EDC knife

I still like tactical knives but favor the more ergonomic and slim knives like Tom Mayo TNT series. most others are quite blocky and oversized and don't like to carry or use those as much.

enjoy slip joints. prefer synthetic handles and most any steel will do if HT properly. stainless >> carbon. even D2 will rust like crazy

I like the CPM steels for fixed blades. old s90v is still my favorite.

for non stainless large blades 3v is my choice. I have one of those nathan the machinest knives and i like it a lot. nice balance and comfortable, secure handle. bad ergonomics makes a great blade a dangerous and poor knife overall
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Another aspect of choosing a forged blade is to also consider the maker's ability and experience to then DEAL! with the blade he has forged.
Forging a blade steel into a knife-like object is one thing. (Doing so renders that steel questionable on the atomic level until 'fixed')
Putting that steel back into a condition that is then usable as a knife separates many makers from the remainder.
One of the first things I ever heard when beginning my forging career - that is often overlooked - is that forging a piece of steel offers far more opportunities to RUIN that piece of steel than it does to do it any good.
Over in knife maker's discussion, you can read countless comments on how some guys treat their forged steel that will leave you shaking your head in wonder.
So, buyers/collectors, please keep buying our forged steel blades with simple carbon and San-mai and damascus, etc.
But please choose your makers wisely.
Some of us put in years of toil learning how to do the best we can with our steel.
Some don't care.
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This is so true. I was at a get together this past weekend, and one of the guests received a $450.00 custom hunter as a gift from his wife. There was spiderweb cracking throughout the blade. The fit,finish, and design looked like some of the "first knife" examples in the shop forum. This guy has been in business for years. I looked him up. I would have been embarrassed to sell the knife for material costs. I'm no great maker, but the hosts brought out the three custom kitchen knives I made them. The owner of the hunter thought only production knives looked finished. He assumed all customs were unevenly ground with scales that didn't fit right.

When I started making knives, I didn't put a lot of time into fit and finish. I concentrated on learning proper heat treat, geometry, and ergonomics. Now that I'm doing better with that, I concentrate more on fit and finish. The who,e package is coming together more now.

Stainless vs. carbon, forged vs. stock removal. Give the customer what they want. :thumbup: It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
 
Stainless certainly has huge advantages in terms of preservation. On the other hand, in my experience stainless steel blades are generally more difficult and time consuming to sharpen than carbon steels. Maybe someone else has already commented on this and I missed it.

Steels that I like for various reasons, in no particular order, include Bohler M390, 13C26/AEB-L (very close to each other), Elmax SuperClean, 3V, CTS-XHP, Damasteel DS93X, W2 and Old Chevy Spring.

I own forged blades and stock removal blades. Probably slightly more forged blades.

Stock removal makes a lot of sense to me as a logical way to make knifes - and especially to make a lot of knives that are consistently the same or nearly the same in quality.

However, I think you can do some cool things forging a blade that you can't do with stock removal. But I don't see too many folks doing too many of those cool things too often.
 
Oh boy, I really went through this recently...

A block of my knives are up at the family cabin, which frequently has guests. I obsessively kept this one A2 paring knife pristine and then a visitor came up (while I was not there) and stained it all up. I was livid. They shouldn't have been using THOSE knives, there's another set for the riff-raff.... Anyway, I was aggravated enough that I finished the next 154CM paring knife in my queue for myself and decided to clean up the A2 blade and sell it despite it having the better geometry. Having put so much time into the finish on these things, it's impossible for me not to obsess over them.

That said, I REALLY like the edges I can get with 1084 and A2. They really do feel sharper. Sharpening isn't an issue with diamonds, so whatev's on that front. I keep my other carbon as patina-less as possible, but for dedicated meat cutters I've accepted a certain staining will occur. THAT said, I've just taken delivery of 12ft of AEB-L, so we'll see if that changes my tune.

For folders I want stainless, every time. I carry IWB, and they're gonna get sweaty. I only own three carbon folders (two GEC), and wish they were all CPM154.

thanks for the thread, STeven, and making the distinction between collecting-oriented and user/carry preferences.
 
Most of my collection is stock removal. I prefer Stainless Steel to carbon as I cannot abide rust and "patina". As I live 50 metres from the South Atlantic, stainless works best..........However.......As forging has become more popular here in South Africa I have been buying choice forged pieces from Kevin and Heather Harvey and Stuart Smith.
I also have pieces from Jason Knight, Stuart Branson and my first one from Sam Lurquin. These are all courtesy of a certain Joseph Paranee who has really been instrumental in opening my eyes (and wallet:o) to the beauty and practicality of the forged blade.

I have a number of "themes" running through my collecting as well which affects my buying habits. I also collect certain factory knives along various themes.

I would also just like to add that I am very much a sentimental collector. I buy knives from makers I like and with whom I have a personal connection, most of my knives fall into this category.
I very rarely sell anything and I generally have wonderful memories attached to everything I own. For me this is as important as the knife itself.
 
Forging blade shapes produces the unexpected, which can be wonderful for the creative process. Things will happen that you never thought of, and the smith can be delighted with something new that slowly appears right before their eyes.

I think some of the magic and mystery of forging that's been "demystified" has been rolled into heat-treatment instead. You hear it in statements like, "So-and-so really has their HT down perfectly, they really have it figured out, the performance is phenomenal." Until you break out the Xray crystallography machine it's still a little bit mysterious why some blades perform the way they do by the time they're in your hands, due to HT and processing.

My question: the beautiful sword David Mirable made for JParanee was made from an old axle shaft from mining equipment. Had the sword been made by simply cutting a flat slab out of the shaft, then grinding and HT, would it have performed as well as the sword did after his forging work, and the repeated heating and cooling cycles? Would there be any noticeable difference?
 
Mecha said:
My question: the beautiful sword David Mirable made for JParanee was made from an old axle shaft from mining equipment. Had the sword been made by simply cutting a flat slab out of the shaft, then grinding and HT, would it have performed as well as the sword did after his forging work, and the repeated heating and cooling cycles? Would there be any noticeable difference?
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Probably no difference.
A key focus of the heat treating process is to return the steel to its original condition it had PRIOR to forging before hardening and tempering.
Let's also define "heat treating" as , well, treating with heat.
From beginning the forging cycle to the final tempering cycle is all 'heat treating'.
To get the best transformation from austenite to martensite during hardening, one should bring the steel's condition back to the pearlite form it was in prior to forging. This is done during post-forging thermal cycling, etc. depending on steel type.
With an old axle, it was probably simple, simple carbon steel.
Really not much you can do with it other than the basics.
One benefit of forging vs. stock removal I'm sure we all know. It's easy to get just about whatever shape you want from forging.
Not so when limited to material size during stock removal.
Hope all that makes sense.

(I'm going to throw this in here, too, simply because I'm just basically doing nothing tonight.
Do most folks know that during the forging of a blade, the blade smith should begin with the highest heats he's going to use on that knife, and gradually, over the course of forging the knife, reduce the forge's heat and lessen his time in the forge?
This sort of begins the "repair" process of the early high forging heats by gradually 'healing' the excessive grain growth of the hot hot! heat.
Does your chosen knife maker do this?
Ask him. If he gives you a blank look - run!!
That's why above I said it's all one llllooooooooooong 'heat treating' process.
Your maker should be paying attention during the entire process.
It's OK to ask questions of your bladesmith.
He should have reasons for doing the things he does, and if you're handing over hundreds of your hard earned dollars, you have the right to know those reasons.)

Or, buy a stock removal knife heat treated by a heat treating service - or a knife maker who knows what he's doing.
But, ask.
 
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Steven65 said:
Most of my collection is stock removal. I prefer Stainless Steel to carbon as I cannot abide rust and "patina". As I live 50 metres from the South Atlantic, stainless works best..........However.......As forging has become more popular here in South Africa I have been buying choice forged pieces from Kevin and Heather Harvey and Stuart Smith.
I also have pieces from Jason Knight, Stuart Branson and my first one from Sam Lurquin. These are all courtesy of a certain Joseph Paranee who has really been instrumental in opening my eyes (and wallet:o) to the beauty and practicality of the forged blade.

I have a number of "themes" running through my collecting as well which affects my buying habits. I also collect certain factory knives along various themes.

I would also just like to add that I am very much a sentimental collector. I buy knives from makers I like and with whom I have a personal connection, most of my knives fall into this category.
I very rarely sell anything and I generally have wonderful memories attached to everything I own. For me this is as important as the knife itself.
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Glad to be of service :)
 
Mecha said:
Forging blade shapes produces the unexpected, which can be wonderful for the creative process. Things will happen that you never thought of, and the smith can be delighted with something new that slowly appears right before their eyes.

I think some of the magic and mystery of forging that's been "demystified" has been rolled into heat-treatment instead. You hear it in statements like, "So-and-so really has their HT down perfectly, they really have it figured out, the performance is phenomenal." Until you break out the Xray crystallography machine it's still a little bit mysterious why some blades perform the way they do by the time they're in your hands, due to HT and processing.

My question: the beautiful sword David Mirable made for JParanee was made from an old axle shaft from mining equipment. Had the sword been made by simply cutting a flat slab out of the shaft, then grinding and HT, would it have performed as well as the sword did after his forging work, and the repeated heating and cooling cycles? Would there be any noticeable difference?
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I don't know but it sure does cut well :)





I'm pretty sure an identical piece that was done by stock removal and exhibited the same characteristics as in shape tapers etc etc would ........ but it would not be as cool :)

All kidding aside

Phill Hartsfield's stock removal swords are some of the finest cutting implements to ever be created and I'm sure Dan Keffeler's blades cut quite well also
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
Probably no difference.
A key focus of the heat treating process is to return the steel to its original condition it had PRIOR to forging before hardening and tempering.
Let's also define "heat treating" as , well, treating with heat.
From beginning the forging cycle to the final tempering cycle is all 'heat treating'.
To get the best transformation from austenite to martensite during hardening, one should bring the steel's condition back to the pearlite form it was in prior to forging. This is done during post-forging thermal cycling, etc. depending on steel type.
With an old axle, it was probably simple, simple carbon steel.
Really not much you can do with it other than the basics.
One benefit of forging vs. stock removal I'm sure we all know. It's easy to get just about whatever shape you want from forging.
Not so when limited to material size during stock removal.
Hope all that makes sense.

(I'm going to throw this in here, too, simply because I'm just basically doing nothing tonight.
Do most folks know that during the forging of a blade, the blade smith should begin with the highest heats he's going to use on that knife, and gradually, over the course of forging the knife, reduce the forge's heat and lessen his time in the forge?
This sort of begins the "repair" process of the early high forging heats by gradually 'healing' the excessive grain growth of the hot hot! heat.
Does your chosen knife maker do this?
Ask him. If he gives you a blank look - run!!
That's why above I said it's all one llllooooooooooong 'heat treating' process.
Your maker should be paying attention during the entire process.
It's OK to ask questions of your bladesmith.
He should have reasons for doing the things he does, and if you're handing over hundreds of your hard earned dollars, you have the right to know those reasons.)

Or, buy a stock removal knife heat treated by a heat treating service - or a knife maker who knows what he's doing.
But, ask.
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I very much like your thought that forging IS "treatment with heat" over a long period. Perhaps not that long considering the multiple hours-long treatments that some blades are subject to, and it also brings around my thoughts that returning the steel to its condition prior to forging is a gray area.

Not all mill rolled steel is the same in quality and refinement. Just because a piece of bar stock got blasted out of the rollers along with thousands of other linear feet of a huge batch of steel and ended up at the metal depot doesn't mean it's the best it's going to be prior to heat treatment. Why would triple normalizations and fancy grain-refining heat soaks make a difference if this wasn't the case?

Cutlery steel from select sources is held in high regard for its quality and purity. At the highest end of the spectrum, powdered metallurgy steel is so incredible largely because of its very fine, clean grain and purity. It's so clean and fine that it's not going to benefit from any sort of hand-forging! :D

I know this subject has been argued 'till the cows come home, but forging may ruin a given piece of steel, or it could refine it, just like a long, nuanced pre-heat treatment. I don't think forging is a one-way street where the best you can do is to just not make the steel any worse, but instead that forging just adds more variables to the mix of "treatment with heat."

I'm a bit biased because in titanium metallurgy, forging (and in general the way it's mechanically processed) is critical in altering the properties of the alloy. Sometimes it's hard to believe that this doesn't apply to iron alloys in any way whatsoever, and that every dislocation and anisotropic variation is completely obliterated as soon as the steel gets heat-soaked.

Just some thoughts from a madman. All that said and on-subject, I used to dislike stainless steel knives, until I got to use a few actual nice ones, which changed my tune real quick.

Commence the public flogging, and bring on the rain of rotten fruit! :D
 
A good smith will set their steel up for optimum structure before heat treat, regardless of whether the steel is forged or stock removal. Forging helps steels like certain batches of cru forge v or aldo's 52100. Forging heat breaks up the course spheroidized structure as does normalizing at proper temps for the steel. After normalizing, there will be grain refinement and sometimes fine spheroidizing. This affects the soak time needed to get the steel into solution for quenching. Forging or stock removal offer no advantage over the other if you get the best structure pre austentize/quench. You can more easily damage the steel irreparably through forging though.
 
JParanee said:
I don't know but it sure does cut well :)

I'm pretty sure an identical piece that was done by stock removal and exhibited the same characteristics as in shape tapers etc etc would ........ but it would not be as cool :)

All kidding aside

Phill Hartsfield's stock removal swords are some of the finest cutting implements to ever be created and I'm sure Dan Keffeler's blades cut quite well also
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Thanks JParanee. Masters of the craft who can and could certainly make the finest of blades regardless of the method. The same goes for machining.

I suppose what I'm saying is, nowadays that the idea of forging improving a blade has generally been discarded, let's not make the opposite mistake and decide that it can only be ornamental or detrimental. :)
 
Mecha said:
Thanks JParanee. Masters of the craft who can and could certainly make the finest of blades regardless of the method. The same goes for machining.

I suppose what I'm saying is, nowadays that the idea of forging improving a blade has generally been discarded, let's not make the opposite mistake and decide that it can only be ornamental or detrimental. :)
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No worries

Real or not some of us old blade guys will always be attracted to the lure of the forged blade ....HELL i still believe the smith imparts part of himself in to the blade as he forges it :)
 
Mecha said:
and it also brings around my thoughts that returning the steel to its condition prior to forging is a gray area.
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Of course it is - don't take me so literally.
You know that I meant that after forging, the steel can be in such a disarray that it needs to be put back at square 1 so that it can then be taken forward into whatever the next step would be best for that steel.
Forging may help in that direction. It may not.
The list of conditions and steel types is lengthy, to say the least.
My point is for buyers to ask their potential makers what they do and why.
Simply getting a piece of steel hot and beating it with a hammer doesn't make it better.
Like I said earlier, forging offers far more ways to ruin a decent piece of steel than to help it.
it's up to the buyer to sort out his makers and find the ones who understand this.


"The most a black smith can ever hope for is to end up with as good a piece of steel as the one he started with."
 
I love 52100 steel in the kitchen, along with white #1. Use 'em all day in a commercial kitchen for years, careful to wipe them down consistently and clean with a green scrubbie (yes, SCRUB) at the end of shift, then dry. Simple as breathing. The color they turn (though perfectly clean) is the color they turn.

I also use French rolled steel pans at work. When you buy them they are shiny silver-grey, though when used, no matter the scrubbing, they turn dead-black. Just is.

The pans will rust if left wet for too long (always hang them or back on the burners), but the pros far outway the cons as to their place in the kitchen. Same as the knives. Have stainless knives for offsite work (sometimes packed up wet/dirty to be handled later), but my favorite users are carbon.

They are more of a pleasure to sharpen also, the edges are more interesting (waterstone sharpening) and IMHO take a better edge than stainless knives (though the data points might be a bit subjective).

I like knives; fondling knives, to include sharpening and taking good care of my kitchen knives. To me this is not time wasted but enjoyed. Bring on the 52100 (having two made now)!

The look of the knife, the hours invested with it, the work done, our time together...if the blade was still shiny I'd be downright pissed off! My rolled steel pans *and* the mirror show the same...


JMHO YMMV

-Michael
 
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