Forged, Stock Removal or Both?

[Gossman Knives]

I'm strickly stock removal. I'd love to try my hand at forging but doubt I'll ever get the time. As has been talked about before, either way produces a fine knife. It's the makers preference on how he wants to do it. I think the most important part of the knife, the soul of the knife, is the heat treatment. How you get to that point is a personal thing.
Scott

 

[RogerP]

I have heard the all knives are stock removal, all knives are forged stuff before. That arguement doesn't wash with me. Just because steel is hot rolled doesn't mean the blade was forged, and just because a blade has some material ground or filed way to get to final shape, that doesn't make it stock removal.

What he said.

I think that there can always be an infusion of confusion when the discussion devolves into pure semantics. I would say that precious few customers who care about the distinction are ever confused as to whether the knife they are pruchasing is forged or stock removal.

Daniel's example of a maker hitting a hot piece of steel once with a hammer and calling it "forged" is a valid one. But it doesn't so much illuminate any uncertainty in the definition of "forged" so much as it underscores the importance of the buyer doing his homework and asking questions about the process by which his knife is going to be made. It also underscores the importance of working with makers who possess a high degree of personal integrity.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

How do you define forged?

I think makers should give a clue as to how much "forging" is done to achieve the end result in a percentage of stock removal.

When I do a rustic bowie it usually ends up being 10 percent and sometimes less removal.

On a dagger blade, as much as 50 percent.

I personally think that a lot "forged" blades should be called "Forge Profiled" That is how I would classify a dagger that I am working on. I forged the "Shape" of a dagger, but I grind the bevels as I didnt want the bevels to extend past the riccasso.

Make sense?

When in doubt, ask for progress pictures

Yes perfect sence.

And you make a good point in that I don't believe we will ever determine an accepted or agreed upon percentage of degree of grinding vs. forging to accurately classify a knife as either.

There's just too many factors. And as you said different types of knives and what a maker is trying achieve on each knife weights in.

I think we split hairs here on this subject, and perhaps we just need to accept that some collectors and makers prefer one style and some the other and some don't care and concentrate on the bigger picture which is what the custom knife industry needs to successfully move forward.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Up until recently I have forged all my knives. I am doing a little work with stock removal now and will probally do more in the future for special projects.

I too have a question. The Knifemakers Guild and a lot of the knife public consider Damascus a raw material just like bar stock purchased from a steel supplier. So if a bladesmith like Jerry Fisk makes a Damascus folding knife it is considered a "forged" piece. However if Warren Osborne makes a folding knife from Damascus it is considered stock removal.

So if the difference is Jerry made his own Damascus would a fixed blade that he ground from his own Damascus be considered "forged"?

I am interested because of a future project I am considering.

Daniel

Daniel IMO, if the Damascus is forged by the maker then the knife is considered forged regardless of the degree of grinding/shaping.

Daniel, you asked a very good question which I have given much though and I must retract my initial statement/opinion. Hope I'm allowed.

IMO, forging of the damascus is a separate entity, thus the billet/bar has to be at least forged to basic knife profile/shape to be truly considered a forged knife.

 

[2knife]

I only have forged knives, but have nothing against stock removal if can obtain similar results. I just do not know.

Would i be openings a can of worms to ask, doesn't the forging process do something to refine the grain structure of the steel, something along the lines of what i heard from metallurgist Rex Walter, fracturing the crystalline structures, that pressing the same 52100 steel in a hydrolic vise cannot duplicate? How would grain strucure be improved on stock removal, is it possible to obtain identicle results solely from heat treat, with stock removal knives?

Another question, for those makers who do both, what is the process of the decision whether to do one or the other?

i don't mean to divert the thread, just have unanswered questions about the stock removal product. does this factor into collectors decisions?

why else does it matter? do people see stock removal as less of a custom knife? maybe it does fall away more from whaatever pure sense of handmade is,

i look at Kevin's avatar and wonder if anyone could ever see that as something else than a forged work of art. in fact, i have taken a lot of interest in that knife and Jerry Fisks design, blade profile. i think he's got something, his style of blade really has a nice contour. i could forget about this whole issue just looking at that knife.
David

 

[Hmathews]

There are many great individuals making knives at this time in history. I hope that we let their work stand on its own, along with what ever they call it, whether forged or stock removal. I think that you have to trust the maker and those that aren't worthy of that trust, will soon be found out. I had a man look at a knife on my table at the Blade Show. It was made of 1095, with a distal taper and differential heat treatment. When I realized that he was thinking that the blade was forged, I told him that the blade was made by stock removal and he passed on it. That was fine with me, because while the blade next to it was forged, I did not want a customer thinking he had something he didn't. As a maker I can't misrepresent the process we use to make knives. I'm not sure I know any maker, personally, that would
I really don't want to see us go down the road of trying to identify what percent of each blade is forged and what is stock removal. I have already had a customer state that they wanted a forged blade that was forged by hand. They did not want a power hammer used at all. Is that what is next? There is already the question of CNC machinery and what that does to hand made knives. I spent 30 years in a heavily regulated industry and don't want to have to make a record on each knife, listing the equipment/tools used in each step of construction and what percent of completion it contributed. I think the best route for those concerned about the process is to talk with the maker enough to be comfortable with the maker and how he makes knives.

 

[Kevin Jones]

There are many great individuals making knives at this time in history. I hope that we let their work stand on its own, along with what ever they call it, whether forged or stock removal. I think that you have to trust the maker and those that aren't worthy of that trust, will soon be found out. I had a man look at a knife on my table at the Blade Show. It was made of 1095, with a distal taper and differential heat treatment. When I realized that he was thinking that the blade was forged, I told him that the blade was made by stock removal and he passed on it. That was fine with me, because while the blade next to it was forged, I did not want a customer thinking he had something he didn't. As a maker I can't misrepresent the process we use to make knives. I'm not sure I know any maker, personally, that would
I really don't want to see us go down the road of trying to identify what percent of each blade is forged and what is stock removal. I have already had a customer state that they wanted a forged blade that was forged by hand. They did not want a power hammer used at all. Is that what is next? There is already the question of CNC machinery and what that does to hand made knives. I spent 30 years in a heavily regulated industry and don't want to have to make a record on each knife, listing the equipment/tools used in each step of construction and what percent of completion it contributed. I think the best route for those concerned about the process is to talk with the maker enough to be comfortable with the maker and how he makes knives.

You make great points of which I agree.

I have wondered about the hand forged vs. power forged issue you raised.
Did you consider the customer's request?
And I wonder if the customer realized how much additional work is involved.
Perhaps charge by the number licks of the hammer.

Thanks David. That piece is of course one of my favorites.
You can view it being made @ http://www.fisk-knives.com/up_coming_shows.htm (towards the bottom).

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

I guess, since it's a topic, it's pouring down rain outside, and that just really ruins my deer hunting for the day, I'll follow up on the current topic -
I don't own a piece of "bar stock".
My 5160 blades are forged down from 1" square bars.
My W1 knives are forged down from either 7/8" or 1" round bar.
I have some W2 from D.III and they are 1" and I've bought some 1 1/4" in the past.
I forge my knives to a full profile.
The distal taper is forged in, as well as the taper to the cutting edge.
My ricasso/choil area is forged into place.
Guard shoulders are set in their respective locations and tangs are fully drawn out.
My take-down integrals require a fair amount of stock removal behind the bolster area, but that's just the way it goes!!
You can bet there is a fair amount of "stock removal" in all of my knives, but this removal is not accomplished to give the knife its shape, but rather to remove excess steel "mass" and to refine the obvious.
If we only "forged" our knives, no one would buy them!!

 

[Hmathews]

We told the customer that we would be glad to make him a knife and don't own a power hammer. If he comes back with a 1.5 in bar of W2 and wants a big Bowie, it will be very expensive. Charlie and I talked about the customer's request a good bit, because it was the first mention we have had along those lines. We hear it a good bit about CNC machining, but this is the first time concerning method of forging blades. I think that the customer's thinking was similar to the difference between a manual mill and a CNC mill. The work load would be reduced and personal touch would be gone. I'm not sure that I agree, since the power hammer doesn't have the intelligence or skill programmed in. It just hits harder and faster than I am able to with my hammer. I have no experience with a power hammer, but believe that the control of where it hits, how often and how hard is a judgment call left to the operator. That to me is a big difference between a CNC mill and a power hammer.

That was a good example of a customer that was talking with a maker to find out exactly what the maker does in creating a knife, so that he will receive what he wants. I realize that sometimes in the push of a Show it is hard to do. It is also hard to separate the hype from the facts sometimes. It boils down to trusting the makers to fairly represent what they do and knowing enough to determine if what they do is right for you. I think for the most part the makers I have dealt with are truthful and the one or two occasions that I have heard about where they weren’t, were quickly recognized. I don't even want to think about the price of Damascus steel if power hammers were taken out of the picture.

 

[Burt Foster]

I like the idea that if a piece of steel was hit with hammer, it was forged. If that's the case, I'll need to add that in addition to forging all my blades, I also forge my handle material. I put it on the knife, and in almost every case, I need to tap it several times with, that's right, a hammer to get it to fit. Therefore, I forge handle material.

Now that I think of it, since my sheaths are tooled, they are also forged. Man I could make a marketing killing out of this!

My new slogan: Burt Foster Knives...It's all forged...ALL of it!

Heck, I even forge my fingers sometimes!

Seriously, since there is no clear point of demarcation where forging ends and stock removal begins, I think it's better defined with a very loose definition. If you try and define it to tightly, you'll always miss something. Most often, however, the destinction is clear.

The grinding someone else's damascus example is one that, though it sounds inconsistent, is still accurate I think. You make the steel, it's forged, cuz who's to say how far it needs to be forged to shape before it's forged. In reading a thread about Steve Dunn's feather pattern damascus, it's basically stock removal once you get to making a blade out of it, but I dare you to not call that a forged blade!

 

[canineforge]

Seriously, since there is no clear point of demarcation where forging ends and stock removal begins, I think it's better defined with a very loose definition. If you try and define it to tightly, you'll always miss something. Most often, however, the destinction is clear.

Burt's paragraph above explains my feelings best. I try not to get caught up in it. I am mainly a forged carbon steel fan, fixed and folder. I won't question how much the maker has to grind after forging. But, I will like his grind and design. Excellant fit and finish will matter. And, if he (or she) has been doing this awhile, I'll bet he forges down as close as possible before grinding!

I enjoy folders enough, I will own some stainless. Especially users. And, maybe a stainless fixed one or two. But, if commissioning a fixed blade or folder, odds are it will be forged. And, I will know enough about the maker that a distinction won't need to be made in my mind.

There are too many great makers and varieties of styles out there to start spliting hairs closely in my mind.

- Joe