Forging Bevels from One Side

Rick Marchand said:
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When I first started(who am I kidding?... I am still only a beginner) I read lots of article on forging and worked with Wally Hayes quite a bit. It wasn't until I had a decent set-up and spent hours a day forging for several months, that I began to understand the science and art of moving metal.
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Again Tai's glib sage advice comes as a shocka' to the chakra.

But Rick, if you're a beginner, then I'm still embryonic.
 
Watching a smith demonstrate at the anvil, where he has forged five hundred blades, is a study in power, focus and rhythm.
 
Rick, for me it's interesting to think of the physics of it: it's more like you're pinching the steel between the hammer and anvil (if you have it at the proper heat!).
The anvil is working upwards as much as the hammer is working down, that makes it easier for me to get how the "tilting it up" technique works.
Peter Ross got me started on thinking that way and it's been very helpful.
That said, I want to try your technique, always good to have a different way to do stuff!
Andy G.
 
I think this might be a really cool thread.......but I lost connection "looking out toward the mountain".
Never really thought of it other than just being there, but I'm part NA and not into the imported zen stuff.
Great discussion, lot of it has been well explained, better than anything I've read elsewhere. Trouble is now that I read it I'll be thinking it and then I'll start messing up what I am doing. Thanks a bunch fellas!
 
If you find that you must think,... do it between hammer blows, or while you bounce the hammer on the anvil (thinking blows).
 
No problem crex... glad to make things more difficult. Ha!

All that Eastern stuff is just a fancy way of saying "instict", "intuition", "being in the zone", etc... no need to import anything.;)
 
Stupid question: I was under the impression that uneven forging would cause the blade to warp out of control during the quench. Why isn't that a problem here?
Thanks,
Chris
 
"Theoretically", everything else being equal, it would increase the odds of it warping in the normalizing and stress relieving cycles prior to hardening, which may just require it to be re-straighten, normalized and stress relieved. So,... I'm not sure any time saved by forging it as Rick described would really save any time in the long run...
 
Whoops, Tai got to it before me.

Each go-round helps even out stresses, even still, warp is a possibility--check out the "Wooden Anvil and Mallet" thread--the topic is based around an older post by Stacy for a makeshift "on the spot" wooden Anvil, and Rick supplies pics of both his stump anvil and his straightening 2x4. Their methods are discussed as prior to quench, but Rick also notes how he goes about using his set up to work on hardened blades.
 
I didn't really put it out there as a time saving technique and it definately isn't something to replace all other methods. It is just a different way of doing things. I have not experienced much of the theoretical warping that Tai is talking about. They warp on occassion during the initial normalization cycle but it literally takes seconds to correct.

Something else I do that I'm sure others are aware of is "ironing out the kinks". That is, when straightening(especially thinner blades) I heat the piece and run it between a heavy flat hammer and the anvil or move the hammer along the surface like you are ironing a pair of pants(hot pants!)It acts like a rolling press. You aren't going to draw out any metal but it sure does a good job of straightening.

Rick
 
The thing I'm wondering about is, if an uneven grain flow would irreversibly effect the way internal stresses express themselves? Seems like it could, because the directionality of the grain flow is essentially a result of internal flaws like porosity, and inclusions....

However, in this scenario I don’t think it’s anything to really worry about from a practical perspective,... but you know how knifemakers are. ;)

Nit picking R us. :) LOL
 
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Pardon my ignorance, this thread is helping me along in so many ways, but Tai--isn't that what happens when working it too cold?
I'm very sheepish to admit, I sometimes do as Rick describes, bringing the blade to a low temp and then using a large flat-face hammer to sort of "press and iron" the blade even. However, I don't do it often for fear of working below a safe temp range and causing cracks, but then again, I also didn't know that others did it and thought I was just being a n00b.
 
Not sure I understand the question Ed, but working to cold can cause stresses to the blade. I don't think it would effect the directionality of the grain flow in relationship to the blade though.
 
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Warping really isn't a big issue on relatively thick blades, but on thinner blades it becomes more of an issue. In other words,... heavy, bulky geometry can compensate to some degrees for uneven internal stresses etc.

The effects that geometry has on heat treating are unavoidable.
 
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I try not to move steel below 1500F and don't do any "heavy" moving below 1600-1700F. Straightening is a bit different. I work at lower heats and nail it with an above 1500F normalization to make sure it "sticks". I always finish with a normalization right at nonmagnetic, then again at subcritical(1350-1400F).

The grain question is intriguing, Tai. Something for us knifemakers to consider but like you said, I don't think the end user would even need to be concerned.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
The grain question is intriguing, Tai. Something for us knifemakers to consider but like you said, I don't the the end user would even need to be concerned.
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No, I'm just doing the OCD thing,... splitting hairs with you. No, pun intended.

... honing my mumbo jumbo. ;)

However, if the uneven grain flow thing was extreme enough, it may be a concern... but not in this scenario.
 
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I guess what I'm asking is what would the max heat for a "low heat" smoothing job like Rick describes without risking undue stress or fracture--Black heat is obviously too low, where as I've thought a light red at the edges would be best.
As to thicker--it's why I'm staying at 1/4" before trying 1/8th as you did your Down Time WIP.
 
If you are straightening and not moving metal, you don't need to be in the "red". Light tapping is fine... just don't try to draw anything out.... and follow with a normalization cycle.
 
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