Forging vs stock removal strengh

[DevinT]

Then , there must be two moron in this room Topic is Forging vs stick removal strength . So I give one more example that show some data about that formed threads are stronger then cut one !! Taps and cost have nothing with that .
So do you agree that forged parts are stronger then machined one ? It is very simple question even for you !

Taps break when they are dull, are poorly ground, poorly heat treated, using the wrong tap, using wrong hole size, inadequate cutting fluid etc.

Hoss

 

[Natlek]

Taps break when they are dull, are poorly ground, poorly heat treated, using the wrong tap, using wrong hole size, inadequate cutting fluid etc.

Hoss

Taps..............again ? What taps have with this topic DevinT ?

 

[DevinT]

You ask me to show you my correctly forged to shape knives and high end forging equipment ??? Come on ..... there was milion place where you can find reliable data about this subject . I read a lot about this subject long time ago /this is not first time thread like this to show on this forum/and fact is that forged part a stronger then machined one .If someone have proof that this is not try I would like to read about that .
And what does it matter here in this topic how I make some knives and how I drill holes is beyond me ....

I am showing your lack of experience on the subject. Everything you know about forging you’ve read about, I recommend you make a thousand knives before you think you know everything.

Hoss

 

[DevinT]

Taps..............again ? What taps have with this topic DevinT ?

You tell me, you keep bringing this up.

Hoss

 

[Willie71]

Taps..............again ? What taps have with this topic DevinT ?

You misquoted Kuraki on the taps on the previous page.

 

[Natlek]

You tell me, you keep bringing this up.

Hoss

I m bringing up the way they make thread which is in some way relevant in this topic . Forming taps push material , cutting taps remove material .....and that formed thread with first one is stronger .... What is not clear here ?

 

[DevinT]

I m bringing up the way they make thread which is in some way relevant in this topic . Forming taps push material , cutting taps remove material .....and that formed thread with first one is stronger .... What is not clear here ?

It is clear to me that you are a troll.

Hoss

 

[Willie71]

I m bringing up the way they make thread which is in some way relevant in this topic . Forming taps push material , cutting taps remove material .....and that formed thread with first one is stronger .... What is not clear here ?

Kuraki posted that the thread rolling tap is stronger, and fails less than a thread cutting tap. You thought he was talking about the threads themselves, not the tools to make them. Is that clear?

 

[Natlek]

It is clear to me that you are a troll.

Hoss

And troll make post like this to start trolling ??

IF knife is forged to final dimension must be stronger then stock removal knife . How much I have no idea

Carry on with this topic I have nothing to add here .

 

[Natlek]

Kuraki posted that the thread rolling tap is stronger, and fails less than a thread cutting tap. You thought he was talking about the threads themselves, not the tools to make them. Is that clear?

Kuraki posted that the thread rolling tap is stronger, and fails less than a thread cutting tap. You thought he was talking about the threads themselves, not the tools to make them. Is that clear?

Clear , thanks

 

[Willie71]

And troll make post like this to start trolling ??

Carry on with this topic I have nothing to add here .

Very true.

 

[DevinT]

Very true.

Funny

 

[Tenebr0s]

All right, serious question:

Anisotropy is a property of rolled steel from the mill. I have heard that even some reputable steel suppliers will cut larger plates down to knife-size stock by cutting horizontally (perpendicular) to the rolled direction. This at least to me seems like it could lead to a weaker blade. I can't prove that, and it might not really matter, but I would feel a lot better knowing my bar stock is running parallel to the original rolling direction. So my question for those more knowledgable, would having bar stock cut against the rolling direction potentially lead to a weaker blade?

 

[hugofeynman]

All right, serious question:

Anisotropy is a property of rolled steel from the mill. I have heard that even some reputable steel suppliers will cut larger plates down to knife-size stock by cutting horizontally (perpendicular) to the rolled direction. This at least to me seems like it could lead to a weaker blade. I can't prove that, and it might not really matter, but I would feel a lot better knowing my bar stock is running parallel to the original rolling direction. So my question for those more knowledgable, would having bar stock cut against the rolling direction potentially lead to a weaker blade?

Yes, unfortunately. The same happens with wood. That’s why, in my opinion, knifemakers should buy an entire sheet of steel. Or, at least, they should know exactly how that bar of steel they’re buying was rolled. This way, they know exactly what’s the rolling direction of the steel (rolling leaves some marks that more knowledgeable people can identify). Of course if, for instance, you forge knives from round stock (here comes forging again!) and you have great temperature control forging, you’ll be ok.

 

[hugofeynman]

All right, serious question:

Anisotropy is a property of rolled steel from the mill. I have heard that even some reputable steel suppliers will cut larger plates down to knife-size stock by cutting horizontally (perpendicular) to the rolled direction. This at least to me seems like it could lead to a weaker blade. I can't prove that, and it might not really matter, but I would feel a lot better knowing my bar stock is running parallel to the original rolling direction. So my question for those more knowledgable, would having bar stock cut against the rolling direction potentially lead to a weaker blade?

Want to know for sure? Send Fredrik Haakonsen an email! He’s super knowledgeable about everything knife related and is a great person. Landes is also pretty cool, drop him a message through Facebook.

 

[hugofeynman]

All right, serious question:

Anisotropy is a property of rolled steel from the mill. I have heard that even some reputable steel suppliers will cut larger plates down to knife-size stock by cutting horizontally (perpendicular) to the rolled direction. This at least to me seems like it could lead to a weaker blade. I can't prove that, and it might not really matter, but I would feel a lot better knowing my bar stock is running parallel to the original rolling direction. So my question for those more knowledgable, would having bar stock cut against the rolling direction potentially lead to a weaker blade?

Here:https://knifesteelnerds.com/category/steel-and-knife-properties/toughness/ Larrin talks about the importance of orientation.

 

[EChem237]

I thought it was already understood that any part of the material that undergoes a phase transformation during ht will erase any prior anisotropy in that part of the material. Any anisotropy that is due to portions that do not undergo a phase transformation during ht are likely negligible.

 

[Tenebr0s]

I thought it was already understood that any part of the material that undergoes a phase transformation during ht will erase any prior anisotropy in that part of the material. Any anisotropy that is due to portions that do not undergo a phase transformation during ht are likely negligible.

No amount of heat treating will erase the anisotropic nature of the bar stock. By evenly distributing carbides through normalization, however, you can minimize how much that anisotropy is going to matter. The "grain" we're talking about here is not the actual grain of steel, such as we manipulate through HT. Instead, as I understand it, these are impurities that do not go into solution, and instead are drawn out in long strings as the steel is rolled in the mill. They're always there, and are preferential nucleation sites for carbides, which is why alloy banding happens. Maybe the analogy is off, but I think of them as a far less severe type of "stringer" such as we find in old wrought iron, which is the silicate slag drawn out lengthwise as the iron was forged and refined.

 

[Willie71]

Here:https://knifesteelnerds.com/category/steel-and-knife-properties/toughness/ Larrin talks about the importance of orientation.

Agreed. This is also one of the marketing points of third generation particle metallurgy. We are testing this with our current batch, and will accumulate more data as more samples are heat treated and tested. It’s also worth noting that some steels will be tougher transversely than another steel longitudinally. I’m pretty sure z-tuff will be better transversely than z-wear longitudinally. At some point tough enough exceeds the human hand’s ability to stress the steel to failure, even when batonning or prying.

However, understanding these properties and maximizing our ability to capture these properties with our equipment is a worthwhile investment. Like I mentioned earlier with z-wear, the 10-20% improvement in toughness might not be much, but with a 0.003” edge geometry, it might be the difference between surviving, and a warranty replacement. If our improvements result in better cutting geometry, then let’s go for it. This is only useful if we can get better geometry from improvements in heat treat practices.

I have a couple chefs who use my 15n20 knives, and they opted for these knives because the cost was reasonable, the edge can be ground very thin, and the edges don’t damage. I can get better performance with more exotic steels, but I exceeded their expectations with good heat treat and geometry. They have used more exotic steels with commercial heat treat that didn’t perform as well, yet cost more. Another home chef prefers his 8670 tester over a much nicer W2 blade I made for him a couple years earlier, as my geometry evolved, and the simpler steel outperforms the W2 knife.

 

[hugofeynman]

Agreed. This is also one of the marketing points of third generation particle metallurgy. We are testing this with our current batch, and will accumulate more data as more samples are heat treated and tested. It’s also worth noting that some steels will be tougher transversely than another steel longitudinally. I’m pretty sure z-tuff will be better transversely than z-wear longitudinally. At some point tough enough exceeds the human hand’s ability to stress the steel to failure, even when batonning or prying.

However, understanding these properties and maximizing our ability to capture these properties with our equipment is a worthwhile investment. Like I mentioned earlier with z-wear, the 10-20% improvement in toughness might not be much, but with a 0.003” edge geometry, it might be the difference between surviving, and a warranty replacement. If our improvements result in better cutting geometry, then let’s go for it. This is only useful if we can get better geometry from improvements in heat treat practices.

I have a couple chefs who use my 15n20 knives, and they opted for these knives because the cost was reasonable, the edge can be ground very thin, and the edges don’t damage. I can get better performance with more exotic steels, but I exceeded their expectations with good heat treat and geometry. They have used more exotic steels with commercial heat treat that didn’t perform as well, yet cost more. Another home chef prefers his 8670 tester over a much nicer W2 blade I made for him a couple years earlier, as my geometry evolved, and the simpler steel outperforms the W2 knife.

Warren, what makes a great knife it’s the maker, not the steel. You, DevinT, Haakonsen or Landes could make a superb knife out of 440C or 5160 that would almost certainly outperform some production knives in Elmax or something like that. A great maker respect perfectly the times and temperatures, exploring the steel to its full potential. That’s why your clients are so happy with his 8670 and 15n20 knives and don’t even bother to try Zwear or W2. This Knives most certainly outperform anything they knew until then.

Let’s wait to see if Ztuff is so much tougher than Zwear, but I doubt transverse Ztuff will be tougher than longitudinal Zwear.

Like Fredrik Haakonsen says regarding PM steels, Warren: “PM steels doesn’t have absence of flaws. They still have inclusions, they are just smaller and more evenly distributed. In some PM steels sulfur are added to increase machinability, giving larger inclusions. The PM process was developed to make higher alloyed steel that is hard to make with conventional process. Cleanliness is just improvement that has come later on.“. But even this steels are not 100% pure, maybe in their 10th generation!
Fredrik wrote also: “PM steels also have their challenges and doesn’t necessarily have better quality control than ingot steels. I have found cracks in PM steels myself. The higher end ingot tool steels go through the same quality control as PM steels. So, it will be wrong to think that a PM steel will give you higher toughness than an ingot steel when the ingot steel is properly rolled and has a more optimum composition.”. Basically a pm steel will be tougher in the transverse direction than a ingot steel with the same alloy percentages, but it’s transverse toughness is not the same as the longitudinal toughness. And this doesn’t even compare to an ingot steel designed with toughness in mind cut parallel to the rolling direction.