Forging vs stock removal strengh

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hugofeynman said:
Warren, what makes a great knife it’s the maker, not the steel. You, DevinT, Haakonsen or Landes could make a superb knife out of 440C or 5160 that would almost certainly outperform some production knives in Elmax or something like that. A great maker respect perfectly the times and temperatures, exploring the steel to its full potential. That’s why your clients are so happy with his 8670 and 15n20 knives and don’t even bother to try Zwear or W2. This Knives most certainly outperform anything they knew until then.

Let’s wait to see if Ztuff is so much tougher than Zwear, but I doubt transverse Ztuff will be tougher than longitudinal Zwear.:D

Like Fredrik Haakonsen says regarding PM steels, Warren: “PM steels doesn’t have absence of flaws. They still have inclusions, they are just smaller and more evenly distributed. In some PM steels sulfur are added to increase machinability, giving larger inclusions. The PM process was developed to make higher alloyed steel that is hard to make with conventional process. Cleanliness is just improvement that has come later on.“. But even this steels are not 100% pure, maybe in their 10th generation!:)
Fredrik wrote also: “PM steels also have their challenges and doesn’t necessarily have better quality control than ingot steels. I have found cracks in PM steels myself. The higher end ingot tool steels go through the same quality control as PM steels. So, it will be wrong to think that a PM steel will give you higher toughness than an ingot steel when the ingot steel is properly rolled and has a more optimum composition.”. Basically a pm steel will be tougher in the transverse direction than a ingot steel with the same alloy percentages, but it’s transverse toughness is not the same as the longitudinal toughness. And this doesn’t even compare to an ingot steel designed with toughness in mind cut parallel to the rolling direction.
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I’ve got z-tuff transverse at about Rc60 in the samples I am posting tomorrow. :cool:

Looking forward to see the results.

Thank you for the compliments, but I don’t fit in the category with guys like DevinT, Haakonsen, or Landes.

Larrin also noted in previous articles that the cast stainless steels are tougher than the cpm stainless steels. This is partially due to the use of cpm technology to allow higher alloying than would be practically possible with cast technology. Z-tuff is a steel that would likely be fine as a cast steel, so I’m quite curious.
 
Willie71 said:
I’ve got z-tuff transverse at about Rc60 in the samples I am posting tomorrow. :cool:

Looking forward to see the results.

Thank you for the compliments, but I don’t fit in the category with guys like DevinT, Haakonsen, or Landes.

Larrin also noted in previous articles that the cast stainless steels are tougher than the cpm stainless steels. This is partially due to the use of cpm technology to allow higher alloying than would be practically possible with cast technology. Z-tuff is a steel that would likely be fine as a cast steel, so I’m quite curious.
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You’re right, without pm process, some high alloy steels would be almost impossible to make. Due to this high alloy nature of pm steels, they are not focused in extreme toughness (maybe Ztuff and Asp2012 (https://www.zapp.com/fileadmin/down.../04-datenblaetter/03-asp/ASP_2012_Zapp_EN.pdf)) like the best ingot steels, but because they are generally more expensive and “high tech”, people think that, because it’s more expensive, it will make better knives, big choppers included!!! I confess I was one of those persons, but then I saw the light!:p Just ask Landes what he uses in his bigger blades (S1 kind of steel, if I remember well) and Haakonsen uses A8mod! None of them use pm steels in big blades!
 
hugofeynman said:
You’re right, without pm process, some high alloy steels would be almost impossible to make. Due to this high alloy nature of pm steels, they are not focused in extreme toughness (maybe Ztuff and Asp2012 (https://www.zapp.com/fileadmin/down.../04-datenblaetter/03-asp/ASP_2012_Zapp_EN.pdf)) like the best ingot steels, but because they are generally more expensive and “high tech”, people think that, because it’s more expensive, it will make better knives, big choppers included!!! I confess I was one of those persons, but then I saw the light!:p Just ask Landes what he uses in his bigger blades (S1 kind of steel, if I remember well) and Haakonsen uses A8mod! None of them use pm steels in big blades!
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For a small knife, you would probably quite like z-finit.

It’s quite tough, and holds an edge better than 52100, at equivalent hardness. I’m looking forward to see the 52100 results.
 
Willie71 said:
For a small knife, you would probably quite like z-finit.

It’s quite tough, and holds an edge better than 52100, at equivalent hardness. I’m looking forward to see the 52100 results.
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:thumbsup:

It is perfect for a small/medium knife, as is Vanadis 4 extra (Haakonsen uses it in his hunters and also in some “tactical” knives, too).
 
I've been reading this thread with some interest. It's educational, even though it is beyond my needs as a hobbyist. I certainly don't have any strong opinion about whether forging vs. stock removal makes a significant difference in knife toughness.

What I do have a strong opinion about is this- Calling someone a "fucking moron", a "twat", and a "cunt" because you disagree with what he is saying doesn't tend to make your argument convincing. What it convinces me of is that you are an obnoxious loudmouth who may, or may not know what he is talking about, but is certainly not able to express his opinions without resorting to the language of an ignorant redneck.

It's about time people started speaking up about civil discourse in our society. Inability to disagree without resorting to personal insult is more and more common these days. Being common isn't the same thing as being right.
 
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GBinGA said:
I've been reading this thread with some interest. It's educational, even though it is beyond my needs as a hobbyist. I certainly don't have any strong opinion about whether forging vs. stock removal makes a significant difference in knife toughness.

What I do have a strong opinion about is this- Calling someone a "fucking moron", a "twat", and a "cunt" because you disagree with what he is saying doesn't tend to make your argument convincing. What it convinces me of is that you are an obnoxious loudmouth who may, or may not know what he is talking about, but is certainly not able to express his opinions without resorting to the language of an ignorant redneck.

It's about time people started speaking up about civil discourse in our society. Inability to disagree without resorting to personal insult is more and more common these days. Being common isn't the same thing as being right.
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There is a history of natlek continuously arguing and trolling. There would be none of this if he could just make his point and move on. Natlek has never done any forging yet wants to dominate this thread. English is his second language so some things get lost in translation. You are critical of kuraki but the forum would be more civil if you would work on helping natlek be more polite. Kuraki runs a very large fabrication company in charge of hundreds of employees. He has a lot of knowledge about machining, welding, and fabrication and is becoming a super star knife maker.

Natlek regurgitates what he reads on the internet.

Hoss
 
Moron,bumblefuck or whatever was said is one thing but cunt is OTT on a thread like this surely
If someone is a troll then best to ignore than rise to the bait
 
Natlek has the responsibility to contribute positively to this forum. He is a newer maker and most of the content he posts is about how everyone is doing things wrong. He writes this because he searches the internet and finds information to back up his arguments, not from personal experience.

Natlek is socially awkward and has never learned to play well with others. Continued attacts on seasoned makers on this forum does create a very high level of frustration. It is not our responsibility to ignore or pretend that his behavior is acceptable.

It is a lot easier to get along than it is to fight. The danger here is that if we allow this behavior to continue, he will run off the really good makers, like Kuraki, who we need.

Hoss
 
OK, I am going to step in here.
I have the same frustration with Natlek that many others do. As long as he posts only his novel build ideas, I am good with his math and theories .... even if I don't agree with them. After all, it is a public forum.
I would like to see something that he finished and how well it works.

That said, this is a learning forum and people who disrupt the friendly flow of discussion among the experts and experienced makers and knowledgeable people ( who are what makes this site such a great place) should not be tolerated.

I will contact Natlek and ask him to tone down the troll behavior. I don't think he intends it as such, but with his language a=barier and inexperience, it comes across that way often.

To those in this and other threads:
If the issue continues, please contact me and I will deal with it to whatever degree is necessary.


I am closing this thread now.
 
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