Forum Strengths Weaknesses & forming Relationships

[OregonEdge]

I have really enjoyed being a part of this forum... sometimes more often than other times, but I have to admit ulterior motives as I have been closely evaluating where the advantages and disadvantages lie for the manufacturer who either endorses, supports or does none of the above. Maybe needless to say, but I work for a large manufacturer in another industry which has considered setting up or helping to promote just such a venture. In my opinion, strictly cost to value, and risks involved... I'm not yet convinced that a manufacturer isn't assuming too much risk by directly supporting this type of outside forum. By outside, I mean separate from the manufacturer's own corporate site with a web master, or through a professional guild or association with established standards that are expected to be adhered to. Here are some major points that you may or may not agree with:

1. In the case of these sub forums, I think product reviews (most specifically negative) should be located in an alternate area, away from the brand sub forum which should be primarly constructive discussion relating to issues which often can't be defended until a manufacturers reputation could be undully damaged. Manufacturers have policies in place which should be first point of contact. While I appreciate Kershaw's 'above and beyond" willingness to continually help mediate these disputes, I think they assume too much risk. By not having more control or direct channels that create opportunities for them to offer their unparalled customer service to deflate issues. Issues that often create emotional drama before they even have a chance to respond.

2. I think the biggest strength or value to enthusiasts or the manufacturer is the building of relationships with the customer and bringing collectors together to engage in constructive conversation and fellowship. This seems to me to have a great return to the manufacturer, and the end user.

3. The biggest risk, as I see it is damage control which results from either a hasty negative review, or clashes/debates that result across sub forums of other manufacturers, or just overly emotional debate within members of the same forum.

I don't have any clear answers, other than for us, we are not willing to assume the risk or cost of building and maintain the infrastructure to maintain something like this internally.

To be clear, this is not the only forum I have been monitoring, and I AM an avid collector. I still continue to enjoy what I think is one of the more successful groups of fine people compared to some of the other forums.

 

[riffraff]

I think direct manufacturer participation is an overall plus in forums such as this, but I agree they are not without risk. Very conceivably, one could foresee an employee being held to a higher standard than us "stock humans." You run a risk of looking like the Goliath to the poster's David. On the other hand, hopefully forum members will keep in mind that everyone is human, and sometimes subject to fits of passion.

As far a product reviews, the ZT 0500 MUDD pass-around reviews are happening in this forum, and I'm sure they won't all be 100% glowing (mine won't be ...maybe only 90% glowing ).

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

OE, I don't really understand your post. Is it just to tell us that you don't think your company should start a forum pertaining to your line of business?

I think any type of industry-centric forum is beneficial to all involved. It gives companies honest feedback and promotes a community-like feel for the members. The risk associated with a forum is negligible as long as it isn't "owned" by a company represented. In other words, Bladeforums is pretty unbiased because it isn't owned by Kershaw or Spyderco or another knife mfg.

it seems like the Kershaw forum has been an extremely positive venture for Kershaw. I think Thomas would agree that the benefits of having a forum like this far outweigh the occasional negatives. I know I would never have discovered the genius of Kershaw knives if I hadn't logged on to Bladeforums.com.

 

[Midwest Ninja]

I think negative feedback is equally as important as positive. Limiting such discussion may be risky, but the company will ultimately benefit as it tells the organization what its customers do and do not want in its products.

 

[reholli]

I have really enjoyed being a part of this forum... sometimes more often than other times, but I have to admit ulterior motives as I have been closely evaluating where the advantages and disadvantages lie for the manufacturer who either endorses, supports or does none of the above. Maybe needless to say, but I work for a large manufacturer in another industry which has considered setting up or helping to promote just such a venture. In my opinion, strictly cost to value, and risks involved... I'm not yet convinced that a manufacturer isn't assuming too much risk by directly supporting this type of outside forum. By outside, I mean separate from the manufacturer's own corporate site with a web master, or through a professional guild or association with established standards that are expected to be adhered to. Here are some major points that you may or may not agree with:

1. In the case of these sub forums, I think product reviews (most specifically negative) should be located in an alternate area, away from the brand sub forum which should be primarly constructive discussion relating to issues which often can't be defended until a manufacturers reputation could be undully damaged. Manufacturers have policies in place which should be first point of contact. While I appreciate Kershaw's 'above and beyond" willingness to continually help mediate these disputes, I think they assume too much risk. By not having more control or direct channels that create opportunities for them to offer their unparalled customer service to deflate issues. Issues that often create emotional drama before they even have a chance to respond.

2. I think the biggest strength or value to enthusiasts or the manufacturer is the building of relationships with the customer and bringing collectors together to engage in constructive conversation and fellowship. This seems to me to have a great return to the manufacturer, and the end user.

3. The biggest risk, as I see it is damage control which results from either a hasty negative review, or clashes/debates that result across sub forums of other manufacturers, or just overly emotional debate within members of the same forum.

I don't have any clear answers, other than for us, we are not willing to assume the risk or cost of building and maintain the infrastructure to maintain something like this internally.

To be clear, this is not the only forum I have been monitoring, and I AM an avid collector. I still continue to enjoy what I think is one of the more successful groups of fine people compared to some of the other forums.

Considering my recent negative confrontation here in this sub-forum that perfectly illustrates the points you've made above (and disappointingly finding out how easy it is to fall into that trap myself), I have to agree that the questions you've asked deserve consideration.

From my point of view, even with the potential for a discussion to degrade into something potentially damaging to the manufacturer before they've had time to defend their position, I think it's worth the risk. I know for a fact that the overwhelming number of positives expressed on a daily basis here with respect to this brand, Kershaw, has directly impacted the amount of business I've done with them in both a positive and profitable sense.

The fact that Kershaw's reps here conduct themselves with amazing restraint while at the same time showing they are human beings just like the rest of us and with a sense of humor, too, only increases my respect for Kershaw. :thumbup:

So, yeah...it's risky...but I think as a manufacturer you just need to evaluate on a regular basis whether or not your presence in a venue like this is worth it. It's not that hard to guage the current tenor most of the time.

Ray

 

[OregonEdge]

OE, I don't really understand your post. Is it just to tell us that you don't think your company should start a forum pertaining to your line of business? .

I think my post is very clear... Not only have I watched forums, but I have contacted a few other knife companies and my observations are shared. So, regardless of kershaw... this IS an issue.

Constructive positive and negative feedback is wonderful, and I'm not challenging that (or anything for that matter). The risk involves MANY situations where hard feelings and emotional drama can span beyond a healthy debate to offline defamation of reputation or outright threats. I know that some of you are well aware of the difference.

I would like to also point out that I am not suggesting any situation with regard to Kershaw only. I'm raising an issue that this is still a relatively new avenue of PR that is largely unregulated and minimally controlled.

I appreciate your comments at a high level about this, and I'm sure you don't believe that this type of consideration is not an issue that could determine the growth of any manufacturer participation, and thus increased resources for those of us who are also enthusiasts.

Or, are you saying that it's all good ?

 

[buckabee]

OE, I too don't fully understand what you want to say.
Are you saying that you think Kershaw would be better off with a more controllable forum, or only that your company would be?

IMO, it all depends on the brand. If you have a company that makes good products and stands behind it, and is interested in the opinion of its customers, a forum like this is great.

But if not that easy, as a good forum needs time to grow.
You can't expect your forum to be visited and being contributed by happy customers only, right from the beginning.
Because the people that are looking for more information the most are the ones that haven't got the product yet, or the ones that only want to rant about it. The people that have only good things to say will only do that on a place they like.

BFC was the perfect place for a Kershaw forum I think, because there already was a loyal customerbase here from the beginning.

About the negative reviews: I personally don't trust/visit a forum much with only positive reviews. I would be looking elsewhere for opinions on the products because it would seem they are hiding something.
The negative reviews help you put things in perspective, and if they are only trolling, its often easy to see them through, and if not, other members will defend the product with their experiences.
What I mean with perspective is this: (I keep it knife-related)
On some fora of low-quality brands, people are speaking about very unreliable lock-up, important parts breaking off, ...
While you can see that how higher the brand quality, the smaller the problems discussed: rust-spots, pivot that had to be adjusted,..
So when I see people talking about for example a painful/sharp thumbstud on a knife, I think he must be talking about a quality product, if that is the worst thing you can say about it.
If I hear nothing bad at all, I will be looking for information on other places, as I don't easily believe in an absolutely perfect product.

OE,As I haven't got any idea what kind of company you work for(you don't have to name it), it is impossible to say if it would benefit from it.
But I know it's the perfect forum for a company like Kershaw, while some other companies would certainly get no positive benefit from it at all.(don't want to bash any companies so no example here)

And of course it depends on the kind of products you're company makes. I don't think there are many people willing to discuss the positive things about glues or toothpastes all day.

 

[OregonEdge]

OE, I too don't fully understand what you want to say.
Are you saying that you think Kershaw would be better off with a more controllable forum, or only that your company would be?

IMO, it all depends on the brand. If you have a company that makes good products and stands behind it, and is interested in the opinion of its customers, a forum like this is great.

But if not that easy, as a good forum needs time to grow.
You can't expect your forum to be visited and being contributed by happy customers only, right from the beginning.
Because the people that are looking for more information the most are the ones that haven't got the product yet, or the ones that only want to rant about it. The people that have only good things to say will only do that on a place they like.

BFC was the perfect place for a Kershaw forum I think, because there already was a loyal customerbase here from the beginning.

About the negative reviews: I personally don't trust/visit a forum much with only positive reviews. I would be looking elsewhere for opinions on the products because it would seem they are hiding something.
The negative reviews help you put things in perspective, and if they are only trolling, its often easy to see them through, and if not, other members will defend the product with their experiences.
What I mean with perspective is this: (I keep it knife-related)
On some fora of low-quality brands, people are speaking about very unreliable lock-up, important parts breaking off, ...
While you can see that how higher the brand quality, the smaller the problems discussed: rust-spots, pivot that had to be adjusted,..
So when I see people talking about for example a painful/sharp thumbstud on a knife, I think he must be talking about a quality product, if that is the worst thing you can say about it.
If I hear nothing bad at all, I will be looking for information on other places, as I don't easily believe in an absolutely perfect product.

OE,As I haven't got any idea what kind of company you work for(you don't have to name it), it is impossible to say if it would benefit from it.
But I know it's the perfect forum for a company like Kershaw, while some other companies would certainly get no positive benefit from it at all.(don't want to bash any companies so no example here)

And of course it depends on the kind of products you're company makes. I don't think there are many people willing to discuss the positive things about glues or toothpastes all day.

read my last post.

 

[OregonEdge]

I think my post is very clear... Not only have I watched forums, but I have contacted a few other knife companies and my observations are shared. So, regardless of kershaw... this IS an issue.

Constructive positive and negative feedback is wonderful, and I'm not challenging that (or anything for that matter). The risk involves MANY situations where hard feelings and emotional drama can span beyond a healthy debate to offline defamation of reputation or outright threats. I know that some of you are well aware of the difference.

I would like to also point out that I am not suggesting any situation with regard to Kershaw only. I'm raising an issue that this is still a relatively new avenue of PR that is largely unregulated and minimally controlled.

I appreciate your comments at a high level about this, and I'm sure you don't believe that this type of consideration is not an issue that could determine the growth of any manufacturer participation, and thus increased resources for those of us who are also enthusiasts.

Or, are you saying that it's all good ?

 

[svrider3]

I can't speak for your company but I think this was a great move on Kershaws part
to open up this sub-forum. Thomas himself has said that he takes the good as well
as the bad into consideration while watching over this forum. Personally I like being
able to come here and read what's going on with old products, new products and
future products.
1- I get to read reviews of certain knives from enthusiasts( not just thoughts of people that have never used them)
2- I have direct contact from people on the inside( (I.E. Thomas)
3- I get to discuss with others on there personal thoughts of a knife I may or may not be interested in.
4- It's fun and I gain knowledge from other wiser more knowledgeable knife knuts.
5- You just can't beat being able strike a relationship with a company in which you
enjoy there products and know directly from them that "YOU" do matter to them.
6- I get made fun of because I'm a tadpole( I see you sixfoot7)

 

[FLYBYU44]

First off I'm not a huge fan of Kershaw knives, not really bad knives, I just don't like many of their designs. I have owned a few though, so I pop in here every once and a while and check things out. I think that this forum is a goldmine for Kershaw, from what I've seen here, it can only be doing their business good. There are some really diehard fans here so that helps moderate hasty negative reviews that will occasionally pop up. I go here for info on Kershaw knives instead of their website because I get it here instantly, with the website I have to wait until it's updated. Spyderco has it made, they have a nice website and their own forums, that is the way to go.

 

[OregonEdge]

I think some of you are only absorbing 1/2 of what I'm saying, and maybe not such a good idea to raise the topic. I wasn't aware that I had said anywhere that I didn't appreciate both constructive positive and negative feedback. And on the contrary I echoed the many positives that a maufacturer and user gains from the experience. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

I was just fishing for feedback on the risks that prevent some manufacturers from participating as Kershaw has.

It's hard for me to keep responding when people ask if I expect there only to be positive feedback on forums.

there have been maker's reputations damaged due to the free-for-all nature of forums in general which can lead to unwarranted defamation. If we are going to assume that doesn't happen then I think the discussion is over

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

I was just fishing for feedback on the risks that prevent some manufacturers from participating as Kershaw has.

This is the first time you posed a question or voiced a goal for your post. I simply didn't understand earlier what you wanted to get out of this thread.

Since we are not manufacturers, all we can provide is our opinion. Our opinion is that with a forum, one would have to take the good with the bad.

 

[buckabee]

read my last post.

sorry, appears we posted more or less at the same time.

I think some of you are only absorbing 1/2 of what I'm saying, and maybe not such a good idea to raise the topic. I wasn't aware that I had said anywhere that I didn't appreciate both constructive positive and negative feedback.

This is a good idea for a topic, but maybe because it is posted in the Kershaw forum, it looked like it was Kershaw that was discussed.

...
I was just fishing for feedback on the risks that prevent some manufacturers from participating as Kershaw has.
...
there have been maker's reputations damaged due to the free-for-all nature of forums in general which can lead to unwarranted defamation.
...

There sure are lots of risks for companies when they open a forum like this. And even the the best companies will get bad experiences from time to time. So they have to be sure they are willing to deal with that before they begin.

You have to be very certain about the quality of your product, and willing to be very honest about it with your customers when a problem rises.

For a brand that knows many of its products really are crappy, because they are only interested in profit, or that is using lies in its marketing, it would be a bad move to start an open forum like this.
When people report those things in their forum, they won't be able to keep ignoring it or defend themselves(only with a big change in the company ethics), and things will get ugly.

But if you're standing behind your products, and people are writing that there is a problem with one of your products, you must be willing to listen to them and make an honest response. If he is expecting too much, there will be normal members ready to tell him that.
When there is a real problem with his product, you must be willing to replace it. And when there really is a big production problem with a whole product line/batch, you must be willing to communicate about it and fix the problem. So this can be really risky, when you know there are quality issues with your products. You won't be able to ignore them. But when customers see that you are honest with them, you won't lose them. Quite the contrary.

I think the effect of trolling negative feedback is a bit overrated.
People that say "xxxx is just bad, their products suck" won't be convincing to many customers. Every manufacturer can get this kind of response, and most people know they can ignore people that say such things. Of course you need clear rules and good moderators that can take care of this kind of people.
Also, with a forum like this, you can look into the post history of someone and decide for yourself if you trust what he is saying or not.

BTW, the idea of having people of the company giving advise without having a moderator status is really good I think. That way they won't be the target of trolls too easy.

 

[he who say]

no harm can come from a forum such as this unless the company involved is not up front and honest or, produces a p.o.s. product. the manner in which you started this post leeds me to believe your company may not be as up front and honest as kershaw has been so far.

 

[dblagent]

For me, a forum from a company where you have a chance of getting to get real feedback where it actually counts is amazing. I am actually MUCH more likely do do business with a company with a forum where they participate than one with out a forum of any type, whether or not they are there too. I like to read the good and bad, and if bad how the company handles it really shows through. In my knife purchases the vast majority come from one with a forum, I like to discuss them and be able to get and give feedback before and after a purchase.

In my opinion a forum is 98% positive, and maybe 2% bad for a company. The good vastly outweighs the bad and in these "wired" times many more people are turning to these avenues for information. I also love guns, and how often to I get grossly incorrect information from a shop? About every time! I do all my research online now and am much happier for it, and better informed.

Some forums have "tones" about them that really comes down to how they are moderated and what they allow to go on, with a well run forum this can be controlled. I really see very little downside overall, as long as you are not producing utter poo because that will get called out posthaste!

 

[OregonEdge]

i've found this very interesting and I think it's a good topic. Personally I would like to see more companies jump on but I recently had a discussion with a key person from another knife manufacturer here (FYI, they don't produce crap). Long story short, I think it is going to take some time. from a collector's standpoint I think forums are great... but the other side of me can understand the reluctance. m-kay?

thanks for all the commets!

 

[Bookworm]

I think the biggest promoter of Kershaw here is the fact that before Tim ever gets to a thread, 350000000 forumers have already posted to a thread that gives a negative review of kershaw that all of the knives they have are absolutely flawless and are some of the best knives they've ever owned. The manufacturer will always back their product, but the overwhelming support of its following proves to me its true quality.

 

[riffraff]

I think the biggest promoter of Kershaw here is the fact that before Tim ever gets to a thread, 350000000 forumers have already posted to a thread that gives a negative review of kershaw that all of the knives they have are absolutely flawless and are some of the best knives they've ever owned. The manufacturer will always back their product, but the overwhelming support of its following proves to me its true quality.

"Forumers?" My built-in forum spell-checker (Firefox) is having a tough time with that one.

Of course, it thinks "Kershaw" is misspelled, too.

Back on topic, though...it's hard to imagine how a manufacturer can have a problem with forum posts. I should think that, with most complaints anyway, a simple, "Give CS a call," should suffice. Now, that being said, how Customer Service handles that call is another matter. If it's a legitimate complaint, and they just blow off the caller, then certainly one would expect to hear about in a forum.

I hate over-simplifications, (and I hate this following line) but the old adage "the innocent have nothing to fear," keeps running through my head whilst reading this thread. Perhaps that's naive of me, but I still think the goodwill shown by a manufacturer on these and other forums goes a long way towards cementing customer loyalty. And there's many people out there that read these threads and never, ever post; many don't register at all. Couple that with Google's ability to correlate searches with what their spiders find in these forums, and you've got an audience much larger than what it appears on the surface.

 

[OregonEdge]

I think a lot of us try to cool off an issue by saying something like "Kershaw will take care of you, call their customer service, blah blah blah".

If I had just a minimum suggestion (and this is just 1 opinion), I would have the following:

1. Complaints required to be in the general "good, bad, ugly" section away from the Kershaw forum

2. Reviews kept in a separate sub forum for all manufacturers
(both of which are available here, but not always used).

3. The Kershaw forum kept to product inquiries, discussions of new products, features... upcoming releases, stories... all of which do NOT have to always be positive

I'm not saying the Kershaw forum can't have negative issues where peple are looking for advice, or critiques on producte features we'd like to see etc. But I would like to see less issues that should truthfully be one on one between customer and manufacturer.

Imagine if every customer phone call to Kershaw customer service had 100 people listening in at any given time. Would that make sense?