frame lock cut outs

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

Agreed, just seems the added weight and beefiness is all for nothing because of these thin cutouts. Why not just go with a lighter, just as strong liner lock with scales on both sides, and your grip doesn't get in the way when opening. I do like that you have more control of the lockup with frame locks but for the amount of weight, I will just stick with a lighter fixed blade and problem solved.

One thing they do different/better from skinny liner-locks is not allow the lock-bar to get jammed as easily all the way across the blade tang. I have seen it a bunch of times with cheapie liner-locks and only once with a frame-lock.

Earlier when someone mentioned photos of failed locks...I don't think most people are quick to take a photo or video and put it up. Just quick to see whats wrong and move on. Usually it is a slipping out the way it came and part of the problem is the knife not locking up the same every time it is opened. Also a lot of people who are not really knife people do not have the pivot tightened very well.

 

[hardheart]

not true, i have two benchmade pinnacles. If your head wasn't hollowed out on the inside, you'd know that.

Well, I wasn't supposed to post again, but I wanted to see what Steve had to say. Anyway, I owned a 750S Pinnacle, and there is absolutely a channel milled out inside the lock bar where it bends. Everyone has a hollowed-out skull, most just have something inside it.

 

[MikeC]

By the way, right tool for the right job crowd. I don't baton period, if I need to split wood I'll use an axe, maul, wedge or gas powered splitter, nor do I spine whack folders or flick knives, their tools not worry stones.

Anyway here are the pix, of the STR heman. Also to Dorito the whole retarded comment just because I called you for being wrong on something, uncool. We know 3 families including my wifes extended family (aunt) that have downs children. Deriding me by using a derogatory term for people who were born mentally disabled, well just plain ole not right. I don't think you have kids judging by that comment, so I hope when and if you do their healthy. You will understand one day.

 

[MikeC]

One last thing, to the poster that said it probably took like 800lbs to make that relief cut fail on that knife that dorito posted, not ever close. People on this site have done test with frame locks and liner locks, all of them had relief cut failure ranging between like 80lbs and 150lbs. Andrew Demko has a video on youtube where he loads up a production CS american lawman with like 235lbs and its about to go and thats a triad lock. This just goes to illustrate my original point that it doesn't take nearly the force that apparently most on here think to make a lock fail. Also if my memory is correct I could be wrong as its been a while since I've seen the thread, but I think I remember the above referenced testing showed that most if not all of the knives failed at the relief cut, not the lock interface, stop pin or pivot, but at the relief cut.

I'm just saying before we start saying things so matter of fact, like it ain't gonna happen, when hello pix of the heman, and then the "like 800lbs comment", how about either doing some research or knowing for certain what your talking about if your gonna make statements like that. Didn't mean to come off like a jack leg in my original post but there has just been a lot of this around here lately and its starting to become frustrating.

 

[Dorito Monk]

View attachment 340453View attachment 340454

By the way, right tool for the right job crowd. I don't baton period, if I need to split wood I'll use an axe, maul, wedge or gas powered splitter, nor do I spine whack folders or flick knives, their tools not worry stones.

Anyway here are the pix, of the STR heman. Also to Dorito the whole retarded comment just because I called you for being wrong on something, uncool. We know 3 families including my wifes extended family (aunt) that have downs children. Deriding me by using a derogatory term for people who were born mentally disabled, well just plain ole not right. I don't think you have kids judging by that comment, so I hope when and if you do their healthy. You will understand one day.

Nice, thanks for posting those pics (and same to Hardheart). I'd never seen a framelock made like that before. It does seem to be made from thinner stock than other framelocks I've seen (0.095" as opposed to 1/8" or 3/16"), but not by much at all. Very cool.

As to the highlighted portion: I guess my using the term "retarded" to describe careless or stupid behaviour was pretty rude of me, but I wasn't calling you retarded in any case, so try not to be too offended by it.

...Unless you are one of the people who go out of their way to do things that wind up breaking their knives.

...In which case that was pretty much what I was doing.

STR: That post was really comprehensive. Thanks for sharing that link. :thumbup: I learned a darn sight more than I expected to about framelocks from that.

 

[goodeyesniper]

so, it's a realistic situation in your mind to have 50-200lbs of force applied to the spine in this way while you hold onto it? the key thing you said is that in the tests they fail at the cut out. yet earlier you said you almost never see a failed cut out from use. You attributed this to people babying their knives, which I think is incorrect (though I do agree many people buy these knives and barely cut packing tape). I attribute it to the fact that no matter how abusive and stupid you are with your knife, it is extremely unrealistic to EVER see those kinds of forces applied to your knife. Usually what you see are shock impacts, which are more likely to cause lock face slippage. Even things like batoning would have to be done very haphazardly to see those kinds of numbers.

When you hear fifty pounds, you think that you're a grown man who can easily lift that, so it's not unreasonable to think your knife might see that in hard use. Go grab a metal Dowell or something rigid and strong. Hold it in a hammer grip horizontally with about 4" sticking out, about as much as your typical frame lock blade I figure, now try and lift a forty pound weight from the tip.... you might be able to do it, but it's going to want to wrench out of your hands because of leverage. how would you ever accidentally apply such force to the spine of the knife without it first slipping from your fingers?

So, I stand by my sentiment that your earlier response was absolutely outrageous and not based on reality. Reality shows a knife, or a user, will fail long before the lock cut out in all but some very extreme, specific abuse.

If you like the feeling of no cut out or whatever else being stronger, awesome, I have certain knife features I prefer which are pretty much all in my head too.

 

[MikeC]

goodeyesniper, I was being sarcastic about the harduse comment, if you read my two above post I was simply trying to illustrate what we think a hard use isn't really all that hard in the grand scheme of things with the low amount of force it took in the test to make the locks fail. I think were talking past one another and your missing my point entirely. You think what I'm saying is outrageous and its all my head, well then that is just what you think.

Take it easy

MikeC

 

[marthinus]

I am tired of reposting my full posts on framelock designs.

So. For those that want to know more about what goes into the design of a proper frame/liner lock look at my posts here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...in-Frame-Liner-locks/page4?highlight=terzuola

Now, there is also been some good testing and evaluation done by Kyle Harris (cKc Knives) from new Zealand discussing blade play vs lock security. In short, though we think blade play is bad, making a truly dependable lock in the framelock/linerlock conversion requires some blade play.
Have a look at these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I3fJVL3DT4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2cZQv5cIqQ

You can see from the videos that even with blade play a lock can still be very secure, very reliable and would require the entire lock to self-destruct in order to disengage.

[video=youtube;A2f5h9zFQvE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2f5h9zFQvE[/video]

Real interesting comments from Gavkoo on the folder of Kyle and what makers such as Bob Terzuola said about bladeplay being a thread for the specific market, yet there is nothing wrong with the desing.

 

[tirod3]

In the real world, very very few use their knife as a folding piton. And those who flatly declare a fixed blade would be better at it have likely forgotten or not even seen the posts of fixed blade knives that failed when batoned. It was discussed years ago. Revisiting the topic hasn't revealed a thing.

If you use a knife in those ways, it's your choice, but it's not what it was devised to do as a tool. Any tool can be misused, it says more about the user than the tool when it fails. The test to "proof" a knife design can withstand stresses are exactly that, accepting them as normal use is where owners completely miss the point. You don't hunt with proof loads and shoot it underwater deer hunting, you don't split wood by beating a chain saw bar with a sledge hammer.

There is no generally agreed industry test that specifies details about blade to handle strength or the pressure necessary to meet a standard, fixed or folding. That is because there in no justification for doing it. It's abuse. Knives cut. Axes and mauls split, pitons and spikes are projections to hang things on. If it's so important to be done that way with a knife, invent the standard and it's specifications. Obviously, the knife industry is avoiding it.

 

[extrastout]

Sometimes you only have a knife, and people want to know their in good hands (and fingers will survive) with that one knife. I think once you get to the point of being on a forum dedicated to knives, it would get pretty boring if these little things that don't really matter were not brought up IMO (looked up this topic, and found nothing on it before I posted). Learned a lot from all your feedback. I will stick with a full tang fixed blade for heavy use, but you never no when your stuck with a folder, so its good to know what it can handle when worse comes to worse.

 

[Jaytaylor]

FYI, 60lb or 27kg in my mass currency applied to the tip of a 3.5 inch blade acting against the spine will produce (assuming no friction) approx 240kg of compressive load to the lock face.

Bear in mind the frame lock is not designed for compressive loading (not a normal use scenario).
For a frame lock to withstand such compressive forces and to fail under 240kg of loading seems like a massive safety margin to me considering normal knife tasks rarely apply any compressive load.

Perhaps a test to see how much force is needed to pull a thumb stub out in order to gauge safety would be more appropriate (or pointless)

 

[marthinus]

Sometimes you only have a knife, and people want to know their in good hands (and fingers will survive) with that one knife. I think once you get to the point of being on a forum dedicated to knives, it would get pretty boring if these little things that don't really matter were not brought up IMO (looked up this topic, and found nothing on it before I posted). Learned a lot from all your feedback. I will stick with a full tang fixed blade for heavy use, but you never no when your stuck with a folder, so its good to know what it can handle when worse comes to worse.

In that case....it is better to have the ultimate survival/hard use knife IMO.

It’s always possible to find dry wood for a fire, the internal side of the branches is in fact enough dry also if the external part is pretty wet.
It is possible to arrive at the internal side of a big branch also with an humble Victorinox 91 mm, as the Farmer


Let’s see how. First, I saw the branch until the middle (not more)



Now, with the sawed side external, hit the branch against a tree


After a couple hitting, the branch began to split


Again a couple of hitting, and it’s done



Anyway, for afire I need to split again the log, so I cut another piece of wood from the branch


I now had two pieces of wood


I wok one of them, I want to obtain a sort of nog


Now, I use the blade of my Farmer to baton, carefully, the log that I want to split, to made a split




Using the nog, I baton until I split the log




Note that my Victorinox Farmer is still in perfect shape, using it to split the big branch but in a smart way


Now I found the dry part of the branch, so I may cut long and thin feathers




And I had the fire



Conclusions: a fire in the woods is always possible, is great having a good fixed blade, but you may making fire also using a small multitool knowing the proper techniques.

Ciao,
Alfredo

 

[marthinus]

Sometimes you only have a knife, and people want to know their in good hands (and fingers will survive) with that one knife. I think once you get to the point of being on a forum dedicated to knives, it would get pretty boring if these little things that don't really matter were not brought up IMO (looked up this topic, and found nothing on it before I posted). Learned a lot from all your feedback. I will stick with a full tang fixed blade for heavy use, but you never no when your stuck with a folder, so its good to know what it can handle when worse comes to worse.

In that case....it is better to have the ultimate survival/hard use knife IMO.

It’s always possible to find dry wood for a fire, the internal side of the branches is in fact enough dry also if the external part is pretty wet.
It is possible to arrive at the internal side of a big branch also with an humble Victorinox 91 mm, as the Farmer


Let’s see how. First, I saw the branch until the middle (not more)



Now, with the sawed side external, hit the branch against a tree


After a couple hitting, the branch began to split


Again a couple of hitting, and it’s done



Anyway, for afire I need to split again the log, so I cut another piece of wood from the branch


I now had two pieces of wood


I wok one of them, I want to obtain a sort of nog


Now, I use the blade of my Farmer to baton, carefully, the log that I want to split, to made a split




Using the nog, I baton until I split the log




Note that my Victorinox Farmer is still in perfect shape, using it to split the big branch but in a smart way


Now I found the dry part of the branch, so I may cut long and thin feathers




And I had the fire



Conclusions: a fire in the woods is always possible, is great having a good fixed blade, but you may making fire also using a small multitool knowing the proper techniques.

Ciao,
Alfredo