How To Freehand sharpen around the blade point

It is, but.....IMHO, it looks like your pictures show needing to raise the handle to keep the right angle on the point. Which was my original question.

HeavyHanded said:
The pizza cutter/plate analogy is perfect.

0612021230a.jpg~original


0612021231a.jpg~original


0612021231.jpg~original
Click to expand...
 
maximus83 said:
It is, but.....IMHO, it looks like your pictures show needing to raise the handle to keep the right angle on the point. Which was my original question.
Click to expand...

Don't lift enough = thinner angle of approach at tip
Lift too much = thicker angle of approach at tip
Stay in the same plane = same angle of approach at tip

Another way of envisioning it is that you have the knife resting on an angled table surface equal to the edge angle you want. In that scenario the handle may become more elevated when the knife is rotated against the plane of the table, but you aren't "lifting" it off the table at all. You're just rotating it on the table. The table is the plane of the angle you want. Your rotation during the stroke is just to bring the region of the edge you're working on into contact with your abrasive.
 
Focus your attention on the angle of the knife in HH's picture. Notice that as he lifts the handle, that angle doesn't change.

What FortyTwoBlades is referring to (I think anyway), is a common mistake made. As you approach the belly/tip area, you start rotating the knife backwards (so the spine is now closer to the stone... in an attempt to "follow the curve". This will create a flat spot (like in your original picture). To compensate for the fact that the edge is no longer touching the stone, you "tilt" the blade up, which results in a more drastic (and now steeper angle) than the rest of the blade. If you took a picture at this point, and compared it to the third picture in HHs post, the blade would be tilted up (probably more), but the angle of the blade would be lower. because you rotated the knife. So you start with a flat spot, and end up with a steeper angle when you try and have the edge contact the stone.
 
maximus83 said:
It is, but.....IMHO, it looks like your pictures show needing to raise the handle to keep the right angle on the point. Which was my original question.
Click to expand...

Yes, handle must be elevated. If you were to set the stone at your sharpening angle then you could just keep the blade parallel to the table. The action is exactly the same though, the handle must elevate relative to the plane of the stone surface.

Blades with a slight belly only a little bit, blades with more belly will require more elevation. Imagine a line running perpendicular to the edge, extending back through the spine.

Most knives will use a somewhat larger angle as you approach the tip in order to keep the bevel even - the tip profile is thicker than the cross section of the straight portion. Knives with a nice distal taper might use the same angle throughout, with an extreme distal taper the bevel will get thinner at the tip - thumbsup: for anything but a hard-use knife.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Knives with a nice distal taper might use the same angle throughout, with an extreme distal taper the bevel will get thinner at the tip - thumbsup: for anything but a hard-use knife.
Click to expand...

A good (or bad) example of that is the Condor Golok. They grind it with a uniform visual bevel width, but it has a really strong distal taper that means the edge at the tip is appropriately thin, but the base of the blade is like a cold chisel. When reground to a uniform angle the bevel width is a good deal greater at the base of the blade.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Yes, handle must be elevated.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks, that was my most basic question and your pictures kind of confirmed what I was originally thinking (and doing) when sharpening folders that have a significant belly.

Trying to "merge" the input from you and 42, it appears that I do need to elevate a little, but I think I was simply overdoing it. I seem to have that tendency to overdo everything :cool:, whether too much pressure, too many strokes used which actually degrades the edge, or elevating to too much of an angle around the point. Not sure if my photos are good enough to show what was going on originally with that BM blade above, but I do think I must have elevated the handle too much.

Although I had a really frustrating afternoon yesterday trying to finish that S30v BM blade on my Arctic Fox stone, there was one bright spot. I consciously worked at NOT elevating the handle much at the end of my stroke, and it noticeably cleaned up the tip and looked more consistent with the rest of the edge.
 
maximus83 said:
Ok thanks, that was my most basic question and your pictures kind of confirmed what I was originally thinking (and doing) when sharpening folders that have a significant belly.

Trying to "merge" the input from you and 42, it appears that I do need to elevate a little, but I think I was simply overdoing it. I seem to have that tendency to overdo everything :cool:, whether too much pressure, too many strokes used which actually degrades the edge, or elevating to too much of an angle around the point. Not sure if my photos are good enough to show what was going on originally with that BM blade above, but I do think I must have elevated the handle too much.

Although I had a really frustrating afternoon yesterday trying to finish that S30v BM blade on my Arctic Fox stone, there was one bright spot. I consciously worked at NOT elevating the handle much at the end of my stroke, and it noticeably cleaned up the tip and looked more consistent with the rest of the edge.
Click to expand...

Stop and observe often. The belly is the toughest spot to maintain a flat bevel freehand as the contact area is so small. Some of the increase in bevel width is likely due to increased wobble as well as the primary being thicker.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
A good (or bad) example of that is the Condor Golok. They grind it with a uniform visual bevel width, but it has a really strong distal taper that means the edge at the tip is appropriately thin, but the base of the blade is like a cold chisel. When reground to a uniform angle the bevel width is a good deal greater at the base of the blade.
Click to expand...
Everytime someone mentions a Codor Golok it reminds me how much I want one. Already have a half dozen machetes tho....
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
It's really hard to evaluate from a distance, but you may be using too much pressure or may be allowing too much swarf and loose grit to accumulate on the stone, which is great for preventing a wire edge from developing and for bevel polishing, but is awful for finishing. When you have an accumulation of loose grit it plows into your edge, which will degrade the sharpness, but will also keep any wire edge from developing, and the action of the slurry helps bring a shine to the visible faces of the bevels, but when you go to apex you want it nice and clear of either grit or swarf.

The stone releases grit under pressure, and different stones of different bond strengths require different amounts of pressure for them to shed worn abrasive. If you use insufficient pressure, you blunt the surface and glaze your stone, which causes it to stop cutting effectively and may even lead to burnishing the edge. If you use too much pressure you will shed particles that are still sharp, and may generate a heavy mud that's mostly wasted stone. Learning the sweet spot for each stone is something that can take time. The Mutt is a hard bond, and is designed so you can really lean into your strokes to hog off metal quickly, while the Arctic Fox is only medium-hard and will generate a light slurry under firm pressure and will apex cleanly with edge-leading strokes when used with light pressure.
Click to expand...

Yep understood. I assume it's just something I'm doing wrong, perhaps combined with what @Obsessed with Edges wrote, which is that diamond-based stones like DMT seem optimized for this kind of work with super hard modern steels, and just make it a bit easier and less complex. Both things may be true. It may be possible to get the Fox working with super-hard steels if you use it just right, AND it may also be the case that diamond stones like DMT are optimized and make it a little easier to work with super-hard modern steels. That seems conceivable to me. Fortunately like 90% of my knives are more traditional and softer steels, I'm almost like a reverse steel snob as I've gone full circle and come back to traditional steels. ;) And I much prefer working with the Fox for sharpening on all my softer steels, it's just a tactile feedback that's really nicer compared to the DMT, makes sharpening more fun.

From your feedback, here's what I was doing when I moved to finish on the Fox that may have made things worse and actually made the blade less sharp than I had gotten it on the Mutt:
  • May have used too much pressure. I was aiming for moderate pressure, not light, nor x heavy, because I was trying to cut a little bit of steel and still finish and clean up around the point area.
  • I definitely had a medium amount of swarf on the stone, and I didn't rinse it off with water during the entire apexing process. That's because I wanted to use it dry for apexing. What I did was only get it damp and rinse off the surface for the final finishing/stropping phase with some edge-trailing strokes, something we had discussed earlier. That process of sharpening dry and accumulating too much swarf, based on your explanation, could explain why it got worse the more I sharpened. But what this means to me then, is that I really can't use it dry for any length of time due to the swarf issue. After just a couple of moderate strokes, to keep the swarf from interfering with sharpening, I will need to always keep rinsing the surface.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Everytime someone mentions a Codor Golok it reminds me how much I want one. Already have a half dozen machetes tho....
Click to expand...

You totally NEED one. :) Mine is awesome, I've owned a lot of machetes, it is by FAR the best I've ever had and can do all normal machete tasks, plus it's a massive chopper and with a good edge (mine is convexed by a professional sharpener), it will chop through thick branches or trees faster than anything but a full-sized axe. Really an amazing tool, I have nothing else like it in the large knife category. I still keep an 18" Tramontina around for light weed wacking on the property, but the Golok is the undisputed champion.
 
You can definitely use it dry! Just use less pressure and wipe the stone when needed. Even just using a dry hand can be enough. If you're using light pressure you shouldn't be getting much buildup. :)
 
OK tonight tried again, MUCH better results. Basically I used water and kept rinsing the stone every 4 to 5 strokes, used super light pressure, and many strokes. The longer I kept going, the sharper the blade gets. I got it to tree-topping arm hair, so that's great progress and proves that it CAN handle a harder steel like s30v if you figure out how to work the stone. So 42: your stone, and my meager sharpening skills, are vindicated! :p

I would say comparatively, the DMT stones get me the same results much faster, but you can get there on the AF stone if you put in the time and use light pressure.

The only issue I'm still struggling with a bit (and this one has nothing to do with the stone) is getting good sharpness all through the belly of the benchmade blade picture above. I'm getting awesome sharpness both tree-topping hair and push and pull cuts on the main body of the blade, but there's a part of the belly I can tell on push cuts that I'm not getting it right on the stone because it kind of hangs up at that point.
 
Time on task will take you far. We can tap away on keyboards for days, but it won't get a knife sharp--only taking the knife to the stones does that. The better a feel for your angles, planes, and pressure you get and the more stable a stroke you develop the better the results you'll get. :)
 
I don't know if it is what you are looking for. Forgive me by the video but I'm on a very odd position to film it. Not exactly this motion, back and forward motion keeping the angle consistent, but on a bench stone you raise the handle keeping the angle and this is what I want you pay attention.
Actually you have to imagine a circle on the curved part of the blade, imagine this circle radius and keep the pivot point stable.
 
Last edited:
brasileiro said:
I don't know if it is what you are looking for. Forgive me by the movie but I'm on a very odd position to film it. Not exactly this motion but on a bench stone you raise the handle keeping the angle and this is what I want you pay attention.
Actually you have to imagine a circle on the curved part of the blade, imagine this circle radius and keep the pivot point stable.
Click to expand...

Just like Benjamin's pizza cutter and HeavyHanded's series of photos, this is a great idea of showing the right technique for a consistent angle. Thanks for that!

Here is another good one from SteelDrake, the important part starts at 2:15:
 
Last edited:
Viewed every video in this thread. All shed some light. The Schwartz video was interesting too where he showed that by elevating his belt grinder at some desired angle, he could then keep his "blade" completely horizontal versus having to lift on a horizontal stone.

So with my vast powers of intuition, I'm going to guess that people out there have created various contraptions for holding bench stones and standing them up at a fixed angle, so you can use them like Sharpmaker. True?
 
maximus83 said:
So with my vast powers of intuition, I'm going to guess that people out there have created various contraptions for holding bench stones and standing them up at a fixed angle, so you can use them like Sharpmaker. True?
Click to expand...

Yup!
 
Can anybody point to one online or here in the forum with pics? I've no plans to buy one because I want to learn freehand, but interested to see what people have rigged up to create improvised sharpmakers that let you use quality bench stones.
 
Check the older thread that I posted, bucketstove has his setup and if not mistaken he posted more of them on other threads.

Or check ewerstruly YouTube channel where he shows how/what he did to rebevel a Pac Salt. ;)
Here's it:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top