How To Freehand sharpen around the blade point

[maximus83]

Stop and observe often. The belly is the toughest spot to maintain a flat bevel freehand as the contact area is so small. Some of the increase in bevel width is likely due to increased wobble as well as the primary being thicker.

Indeed. To me, that is the single biggest challenge of freehand that I am facing right now: getting the belly and point sharp and keeping the edge bevel in the same approximate range as the straight portion of the blade. Conceptually I'm clear on what needs to happen after watching the videos. However with a large belly area, it's quite tricky to do that gradual handle elevation throughout each stroke, and do that in a precise and repeatable way that keeps the same angle, time after time. It seems like it's simple math: the more strokes you make, the more you increase the probability of "wavering" or not holding the precise same angle on any given stroke, thus boogering up your previous work and actually reversing your progress.

I similarly had challenges with setting my secondary bevel, or "scrubbing", when I get around the belly area of the blade. It's the exact same issue, and in a way even more complex, because you have to keep changing the elevation of the handle and then scrubbing at that elevation, then rotate blade a little bit more, elevate a little bit more, and repeat. It doesn't feel like a very precise operation, at least not when I'm doing it.

 

[maximus83]

Check the older thread that I posted, bucketstove has his setup and if not mistaken he posted more of them on other threads.

Or check ewerstruly YouTube channel where he shows how/what he did to rebevel a Pac Salt.
Here's it:

Yep thanks, that's what I was thinking about. Here's one of his showing what he calls the Adjustable sharpening wedge.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Indeed. To me, that is the single biggest challenge of freehand that I am facing right now: getting the belly and point sharp and keeping the edge bevel in the same approximate range as the straight portion of the blade. Conceptually I'm clear on what needs to happen after watching the videos. However with a large belly area, it's quite tricky to do that gradual handle elevation throughout each stroke, and do that in a precise and repeatable way that keeps the same angle, time after time. It seems like it's simple math: the more strokes you make, the more you increase the probability of "wavering" or not holding the precise same angle on any given stroke, thus boogering up your previous work and actually reversing your progress.

I similarly had challenges with setting my secondary bevel, or "scrubbing", when I get around the belly area of the blade. It's the exact same issue, and in a way even more complex, because you have to keep changing the elevation of the handle and then scrubbing at that elevation, then rotate blade a little bit more, elevate a little bit more, and repeat. It doesn't feel like a very precise operation, at least not when I'm doing it.

One thing is to really pay attention to how it feels when you are running the steel over the stone. There will be a lower pitch on the shoulder, a higher one on the edge, and a somewhat smooth feel as you work the actual bevel. I "bump" the shoulder as I go, every half dozen passes or so. This gives me a tactile index of where I am on the edge. I can actually feel when I've apexed the edge if I'm paying enough attention - the amount of drag will increase.

Another trick that helped me out a lot freehanding is to sharpen a machete on a benchstone. All of your movements are much larger, any shifts in the plane the blade is on will be readily visible. The bevels are larger and easier to feel location on the edge.

Normally I will scrub in a series of overlapping areas to start, but once I have gotten the belly dialed in I switch to a sweeping motion that hits the entire belly with each pass.

 

[maximus83]

Good idea on using the machete for practice. I'm just about to make an order of an array of a few more cheap knives for practice--a Spyderco Mule in a super-hard steel that I can use to practice sharpening super steels, a Schrade in 1095, a Buck in 420, etc--so I may just throw in another cheap Tramontina that I can work on.

I also think it's time to resort to the tried and true method of getting a sharpie on the edge when I am setting a secondary bevel, so I can see if I've ground it consistently clear thru the belly and point.

 

[awestib]

Indeed. To me, that is the single biggest challenge of freehand that I am facing right now: getting the belly and point sharp and keeping the edge bevel in the same approximate range as the straight portion of the blade. Conceptually I'm clear on what needs to happen after watching the videos. However with a large belly area, it's quite tricky to do that gradual handle elevation throughout each stroke, and do that in a precise and repeatable way that keeps the same angle, time after time. It seems like it's simple math: the more strokes you make, the more you increase the probability of "wavering" or not holding the precise same angle on any given stroke, thus boogering up your previous work and actually reversing your progress.

I similarly had challenges with setting my secondary bevel, or "scrubbing", when I get around the belly area of the blade. It's the exact same issue, and in a way even more complex, because you have to keep changing the elevation of the handle and then scrubbing at that elevation, then rotate blade a little bit more, elevate a little bit more, and repeat. It doesn't feel like a very precise operation, at least not when I'm doing it.

I totally get that! Even to this day, I have problems at times to align the bevel after scrubbing with single, usually edge leading strokes. Normally a few of those and the burr is “gone”, but sometimes, particularly in the belly/tip area, there is a burr left and I have to increase the angle during those single strokes substantially to shear it off. That tells me that I was too sloppy during my scrubbing motion and deviated too much on the angle.

 

[maximus83]

Another trick that helped me out a lot freehanding is to sharpen a machete on a benchstone. All of your movements are much larger, any shifts in the plane the blade is on will be readily visible. The bevels are larger and easier to feel location on the edge.

So I did some more practice on 2 larger knives tonight that had some belly. Started with a Gerber Camp knife, about a 4.5" blade in 440a. Reprofiled it to 20 dps on the Mutt, got a fairly nice clean bevel all the way thru the belly and point. Apexed on the AF, got it hair popping sharp and clean push cuts through news print.

So now I was feeling cocky and stepped up to a Schrade 7" carbon steel survival knife. This guy has lots of belly. OK, 2 steps forward, 1 step back. After an hour working with the big Schrade this evening, I was appropriately humbled after butchering the belly, and all the cockiness from getting my Gerber super sharp was knocked out of me. Working on a big knife with lots of belly makes you realize how tricky it is to adjust the height through your stroke, and keep a consistent angle.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

What I like to do with deep bellies is try to think of where the center of the circle roughly described by the tip's arc is, and I'll put my off hand as close to that point as possible. Then when I move my dominant hand my off hand acts as a pivot point in approximately the right spot.

 

[Kyle363]

Thus thread is awesome! Even though I've been free hand sharpening for 3+ years I'm still learning.

 

[maximus83]

Normally I will scrub in a series of overlapping areas to start, but once I have gotten the belly dialed in I switch to a sweeping motion that hits the entire belly with each pass.

HH, thanks for that, I tried again with this approach last night when working on the big Schrade I mentioned earlier, which has a HUGE belly, and it did help. Basically what I did was keep scrubbing in little overlapping sections, rotate the blade a bit, elevate a bit, scrub some more, and repeat. I did that until the bevel looked decent ("decent" in my case merely means not butchered and not horrible, we are not talking Wicked Edge perfection here ). Once I got to that level, I tried your approach on the American Mutt, I did a series of sort of half-slices (starting up near the belly, then a sweeping or slicing motion up through the point). This approach helped me finish the belly bevel and make it look more uniform than it did after scrubbing.

I don't know if that approach is good or bad, would like to hear your thoughts on whether what I did is workable or is a bad idea. I definitely still don't have the Schrade actually sharp yet, but it did seem like this way helped get better uniformity in the newly profiled bevel.

 

[HeavyHanded]

HH, thanks for that, I tried again with this approach last night when working on the big Schrade I mentioned earlier, which has a HUGE belly, and it did help. Basically what I did was keep scrubbing in little overlapping sections, rotate the blade a bit, elevate a bit, scrub some more, and repeat. I did that until the bevel looked decent ("decent" in my case merely means not butchered and not horrible, we are not talking Wicked Edge perfection here ). Once I got to that level, I tried your approach on the American Mutt, I did a series of sort of half-slices (starting up near the belly, then a sweeping or slicing motion up through the point). This approach helped me finish the belly bevel and make it look more uniform than it did after scrubbing.

I don't know if that approach is good or bad, would like to hear your thoughts on whether what I did is workable or is a bad idea. I definitely still don't have the Schrade actually sharp yet, but it did seem like this way helped get better uniformity in the newly profiled bevel.

That's it.

Once you dial it in and have a good idea of the amount of elevation needed, switch to a full stroke. Keep feeling for the shoulder transition. Doing a clean job on this area makes the knife cut a lot better.

If you lose the angle or the flow, go back and scrub a little to get it back. Also, make sure to track down into the flat region every few passes or you'll get a demarcation between the belly and the flat. Same thing when working the flat, track up onto the belly every few passes or you'll start to show the break point.

 

[maximus83]

Ok made some progress tonight focusing on sharpening around the belly and point. I worked with the 7" Schrade in 1095 for over an hour. Profiled it to an estimated 20 dps on the American Mutt. Then worked it with the Arctic Fox. Results are a LOT of improvement.

• Got a pretty consistent-for-me bevel around the belly and point. One side is pretty nice and better than the other, as pics show.
• Got a pretty good overall edge. It would just barely shave arm hair, and would do nice clean push-cuts cross grain on computer paper, or on news print.
• Back near the heel is rough. I was focusing on the belly so I didn't get around to cleaning that up yet.

Observations: I need help with burr management. On this particular hollow ground 1095 blade, it kept forming VERY large burrs that were giving me trouble, I'd have to do several very high-angle passes to grind the burr off. I still haven't completely eliminated it even working on the AF, it's much smaller now but keeps flipping back and forth. Open to tips on that.

Here's my "good side", focusing up around belly and point.

This is nicest hand-sharpened belly I've ever managed on such a large blade.

Other side, not as good. Troubles back near the heel, burr visible in middle, blending issues in the belly.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I'd say it's good! Can't really see what the problem on the other side :thumbups:

 

[HeavyHanded]

Ok made some progress tonight focusing on sharpening around the belly and point. I worked with the 7" Schrade in 1095 for over an hour. Profiled it to an estimated 20 dps on the American Mutt. Then worked it with the Arctic Fox. Results are a LOT of improvement.

• Got a pretty consistent-for-me bevel around the belly and point. One side is pretty nice and better than the other, as pics show.
• Got a pretty good overall edge. It would just barely shave arm hair, and would do nice clean push-cuts cross grain on computer paper, or on news print.
• Back near the heel is rough. I was focusing on the belly so I didn't get around to cleaning that up yet.

Observations: I need help with burr management. On this particular hollow ground 1095 blade, it kept forming VERY large burrs that were giving me trouble, I'd have to do several very high-angle passes to grind the burr off. I still haven't completely eliminated it even working on the AF, it's much smaller now but keeps flipping back and forth. Open to tips on that.

Here's my "good side", focusing up around belly and point.

This is nicest hand-sharpened belly I've ever managed on such a large blade.

Other side, not as good. Troubles back near the heel, burr visible in middle, blending issues in the belly.

Looks like a good start!

Practice, tactile feel, observation.

 

[cbwx34]

Ok made some progress tonight focusing on sharpening around the belly and point. I worked with the 7" Schrade in 1095 for over an hour. Profiled it to an estimated 20 dps on the American Mutt. Then worked it with the Arctic Fox. Results are a LOT of improvement.

• Got a pretty consistent-for-me bevel around the belly and point. One side is pretty nice and better than the other, as pics show.
• Got a pretty good overall edge. It would just barely shave arm hair, and would do nice clean push-cuts cross grain on computer paper, or on news print.
• Back near the heel is rough. I was focusing on the belly so I didn't get around to cleaning that up yet.

Observations: I need help with burr management. On this particular hollow ground 1095 blade, it kept forming VERY large burrs that were giving me trouble, I'd have to do several very high-angle passes to grind the burr off. I still haven't completely eliminated it even working on the AF, it's much smaller now but keeps flipping back and forth. Open to tips on that.

Here's my "good side", focusing up around belly and point.

This is nicest hand-sharpened belly I've ever managed on such a large blade.

Other side, not as good. Troubles back near the heel, burr visible in middle, blending issues in the belly.

One thing that I do sometimes that might help, is I do sort of a "two stroke" method (although it's not really a two stroke... I'll explain shortly). Basically, the first pass down the stone is strictly on the straight portion with no rotation... this helps keep it even, and insures the heel is properly sharpened. Unless it's a really long knife, cover the straight portion in one pass. The 2nd pass I immediately move toward the belly tip area, and cover that in one pass, so the knife is basically in "rotation" (or lifting if you do that), the entire stroke. This also lets me focus more on the angle in the belly/tip area, and specifically adjust it if needed.

I hate calling it a "two stroke method", because, although technically that's what it is, it's really just one movement to cover the entire blade. I don't specifically reposition to cover the belly/tip area... I just focus on it on the 2nd pass. Unless the knife is too long, both strokes start from the same position, if its a long knife, as I prepare for the belly/tip stroke, I might move the knife over a bit on the return of the first stroke. There's no need to "blend" the strokes are anything... since the entire knife is covered equally.

Anyway, easier to do than to talk about, and might help even out some of what you're seeing.

 

[maximus83]

Well the cool thing, in addition to getting a cosmetically decent belly: having a 0.23" thick survival knife that comes super dull from the factory, now it can do push-cuts thru paper and shave arm hair. Not all that practical, but fun.

 

[adamlau]

I never try to follow the factory edge bevel. Every initial sharpening can be seen as a reprofile where the factory angle is reduced and the edge follows my natural sharpening motion. Obviously, this an unreasonable proposition for professionals who receive payment for sharpening or for those who insist on absolute symmetry from heel to tip. For me, this leads to consistent touch-ups and expedites the entire sharpening process into the future. Note that I do try to maintain an even bevel width by modulating pressure.

 

[Lapedog]

Sometimes I start an pass half way up the blade. This makes it easier to get the belly a tip right.

 

[maximus83]

I never try to follow the factory edge bevel. Every initial sharpening can be seen as a reprofile where the factory angle is reduced and the edge follows my natural sharpening motion. Obviously, this an unreasonable proposition for professionals who receive payment for sharpening or for those who insist on absolute symmetry from heel to tip. For me, this leads to consistent touch-ups and expedites the entire sharpening process into the future. Note that I do try to maintain an even bevel width by modulating pressure.

Making each blade yours. And so you can maintain it going forward. Makes sense.

Only case where I'm reluctant to do that is knives that come with a really awesome edge and bevel from the factory, they're so awesomely sharp I hate to throw success out the window just to regrind it in those cases. Like my new Cold Steel Recon 1, that blade is incredible for a $100 knife. Fortunately, 2/3 of the knives I buy I'm not happy with the factory grind, so I have a good excuse to do exactly what you do from now on.