Freehand sharpening pros: Is Wicked Edge Go worth it?

[adamlau]

^ While not mentioned specifically in the referenced thread, Stamp has mentioned that chips are to be avoided as they represent fracturing which may not be able to be polished out and require a destress step to resolve.

 

[NJBillK]

So here's the question I think that really underlies everything in this thread, maybe I should just ask it directly.

Is it possible for an average hobbyist knife sharpener to get good enough at freehand sharpening to put seriously good edges on your knives that are MUCH better than factory, with just a set of good diamond or water stones, and a strop? Or are we kidding ourselves? I really don't know. Do I need to just practice harder with a bunch of cheap knives and put more time into it? Trying to figure out what it is that gets you to the next level. All things being equal, I'd still PREFER to get good at freehand sharpening, but it just isn't happening.

I have no problems sharpening a knife to hair whittling sharp. Some alloys take more time than others, and some that are more degraded will take more time as well. Some perform better with a more toothy edge and more or less frequent touch ups, some more polished and with more or less frequent touch ups.

The problem is that not every steel is alike, and to further muddy the waters, the same alloy at 58 or 62 can react differently on the stones, and prefer a different edge "type" or "toothiness"...

ATS-34 likes a toothy edge (400 grit) and fairly frequent light touch ups, but M390 likes a finer polish but can withstand less frequent maintenance.

All of this being said, I like to think that DMT coarse through extra extra fine, a loaded strop and some diamond paste will work for just about anything out there.

True some alloys don't like the hard diamonds (Maxamet), but since there isn't much of an option to cut it, you have to be light on the stones and use a finer grit than expected. (If you want to reprofile, use a medium instead of a coarse and take your time.)

Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

If you are doing the wrong thing over and over, you won't get better. Sit down with your buddy and see what he knows that you do not. Watch tons and tons of videos on YouTube and think about them. Which ones make sense, which seem intuitively correct, which ones just don't feel right when you try them.
Before you narrow your gaze and you set your eyes on one thing and work towards it, You have to broaden your horizons and see what is out there.
------
Some things that I have found to work for me:

• Use your arms and shoulders more and fingers less. Keep your hands/fingers rigid.

- The small muscles in your hands can move in smaller increments, making a crisp apex difficult to achieve.

• Different strokes for different folks. The stroke should be decided by what your goal is.

- A scrubbing motion (push and pull) to remove material, edge leading for burr raising, edge trailing on a strop for burr removal.

• See what else is out there, it may work better.

- Do you normally bring your blade to extra fine then strop? Next time it needs an actual sharpening, use a medium stone with progressively lighter pressure on progressively less strokes per side. This will soften the hold of a burr making it easier to strop off while giving a toothier edge then your are used to.

• See how different degrees of edge polish work for you.

- Who knows, you might like Cruwear Manix at 16k and Maxamet Mule at 110 grit. Think of it as your Manix that can peel an apple in one continuous push cut and your Mule as a little pocket chainsaw.

• Don't think that a strop can't be the best or worst thing for you.

- Used correctly, you can use a strop for 20+ minutes and get an edge finer and finer polished, but if used incorrectly (too much pressure on a soft medium or too step of an angle), you can round your apex in a few strokes setting you back.
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It's a big world and sharpening a knife is a Very small part of it. Why not see what the steels you already own can offer. You can even take some notes and see if a pattern arises.

Best of luck and feel free to shoot me a conversation or tag me in here for any questions. If I can help you out, I will gladly do so.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Stamp made a comment regarding the edge setting of such steels to the effect of "...avoid diamonds as they are likely to over chip the steel due to less than ideal HT". Search for the term martha stewart on his forum for the full commentary.

Unless there was some very specific and abnormal heat treat issue with the knives he mentioned (Martha Stewart brand), and assuming we are talking about the broader range of inexpensive kitchen knives in low-alloy stainless steels, there's no reason to avoid using a diamond hone for edge-setting on them, UNLESS one really hasn't figured out the best touch or strategy for using a diamond hone in the first place. Such steels will never chip with a heat treat properly executed as designed for them (to mid/high-50s HRC), as they're too ductile, i.e., not brittle enough to chip. But, if a too-heavy touch is used, as many might do using other stone types, like natural, alox, SiC stones, it'll be counterproductive with a diamond hone, taking off a lot more metal than necessary and leaving the edge very ragged, even more so at too-coarse grit. It'll also likely clog the hone. The key is in knowing what the combination of (1) a softish steel and (2) the hardest available abrasive will do in tandem, if the touch is too heavy. The steel is much, much softer and easier to grind; so the better approach is to back off pressure even more, especially in the finishing steps, and also avoid starting at too-coarse grit. The approach has to be adapted to both the steel and the abrasive type used. If done properly, a diamond hone will be no worse and no different than any other stone type appropriate for such easy-to-grind steels.

It is possible a bad heat treat could leave the edges on such knives almost unrefinable, and I've had one or two 'cheap' kitchen knives that seemed to crumble away like dust at the edge, if they were taken very fine at all. But as it turned out with mine, that 'crumbly' steel was confined to the portion nearest the edge (probably overheated in factory edge shaping/finishing), which I eventually took off by repeated thinnings and resharpenings. Once past that bad steel, they started looking and behaving like decent and typical stainless kitchen knives, which is good enough. But the point being, such issues are due to defects in the steel itself, in which case it doesn't matter what's used in trying to sharpen them, as the bad steel just won't respond properly to anything.


David

 

[maximus83]

So David: you think I probably used too much pressure? I tried the technique of the guy in the video, I was doing it one-handed rather than pressing/guiding with my support hand. I do think I got a pretty good edge, it's super sharp and comparable to my Wuesthofs in cutting food, but it will not shave hair. All I did was follow the video steps, doing the de-stress and shaping on my DMT C stone, then did the sharpening slices on my F stone.

 

[maximus83]

All of this being said, I like to think that DMT coarse through extra extra fine, a loaded strop and some diamond paste will work for just about anything out there.

Thanks for your post. A question I had is if I'm not getting hair shaving results after my C and F stones--the basic steps--is there any reason to think I'll be able to get the knife actually SHARPER by going to EF, strop, etc? I used to think so, but lately I've seen some folks here and on videos saying you really should be able to get the knife scary sharp even on the initial coarse stones.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for your post. A question I had is if I'm not getting hair shaving results after my C and F stones--the basic steps--is there any reason to think I'll be able to get the knife actually SHARPER by going to EF, strop, etc? I used to think so, but lately I've seen some folks here and on videos saying you really should be able to get the knife scary sharp even on the initial coarse stones.

That is true, and it's a goal to aim for, ultimately. But it doesn't preclude getting better results at finer stages, which is certainly possible. If your technique produces good or excellent results at the coarsest stone, then using the same good technique in following stages can produce further upticks in sharpness, or at least favorably change the character of the sharpness seen at finer finishes. In other words, it can be sharp or sharper across the board, but you might find a particular degree of toothiness preferable for your own uses, which can be attained by using further & finer grit stages.


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

So David: you think I probably used too much pressure? I tried the technique of the guy in the video, I was doing it one-handed rather than pressing/guiding with my support hand. I do think I got a pretty good edge, it's super sharp and comparable to my Wuesthofs in cutting food, but it will not shave hair. All I did was follow the video steps, doing the de-stress and shaping on my DMT C stone, then did the sharpening slices on my F stone.

Using too much pressure, I think accounts for 99% of difficulties in figuring out a diamond hone, and how best to use it. I see it as part of the normal learning curve with diamond hones; I went through it for a long time, and they confounded me for years. If I were betting, I'd say reducing pressure will improve results with them almost universally.

The mindset for me, when using a diamond hone, is in knowing and reminding myself that diamond is 2.5X-3X as hard as other manmade abrasives (AlOx, SiC in particular), and 7X-8X as hard as natural abrasives (Arkansas stones). In knowing that, I DECREASE the pressure I use with diamond accordingly, by at least a factor of 2X-3X. If, after doing that, you still see issues with rough/ragged edges and burring, then reduce the pressure even further. At the lightest refining stages, I equate the pressure I use with a diamond hone to something like using the blade's edge to lightly brush dust off the surface of the hone. That's all that's needed.


David

 

[maximus83]

Ok good advice. One good thing is I didn't have any burring last night--I was a able to avoid that by doing what the guy on the video did. During shaping: a few back-and-forth scrubbing strokes (like 2 or 3) at each section of the blade, then flip it over and repeat. During apexing: alternating single slices on each side. I was pressing LESS hard than I have in the past, but perhaps, still too hard on reflection. I do think I've always tended to be an excessive pressure guy. There were indeed very rough/ragged edges (though no burring), so perhaps that is still my issue.

I actually felt modestly good about the result I got following this technique for the first time, the cosmetic look of the edge was fairly even and consistent (compared to some that I've butchered in the past--ugh! ) and the real thing that matters--the cutting performance--was right there with my Wuesthofs and MUCH better than the awful edge these uber cheapo knives came with. Basically I got these things to destroy and learn sharpening, so they are serving their purpose. So I think just with this one video and following the guy's approach, I bumped up the level of my sharpening one notch from where it was. Progress. I'd like to get better though and get the cheap kitchen knives to the point they can shave hair. Then I'll know I've arrived at sharpening nirvana. Look Mom, my kitchen knives can shave arm hair.

So from the discussion above, when I try "round 2" improving my technique some evening this week, I'll stick with the technique in the video that 42 posted, but here's additional stuff I'll pay attention to. Welcome comments on approach here, I'm trying to learn and open to feedback.

1. Reduce pressure
2. Try an increased progression of grits to refine the edge more. Shape: C stone. Apex-and-refine: F, EF, and then strop with my 8000 grit paste.
3. Use arms and shoulders more, keep fingers and wrists locked.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Ok good advice. One good thing is I didn't have any burring last night--I was a able to avoid that by doing what the guy on the video did. During shaping: a few back-and-forth scrubbing strokes (like 2 or 3) at each section of the blade, then flip it over and repeat. During apexing: alternating single slices on each side. I was pressing LESS hard than I have in the past, but perhaps, still too hard on reflection. I do think I've always tended to be an excessive pressure guy. There were indeed very rough/ragged edges (though no burring), so perhaps that is still my issue.

I actually felt modestly good about the result I got following this technique for the first time, the cosmetic look of the edge was fairly even and consistent (compared to some that I've butchered in the past--ugh! ) and the real thing that matters--the cutting performance--was right there with my Wuesthofs and MUCH better than the awful edge these uber cheapo knives came with. Basically I got these things to destroy and learn sharpening, so they are serving their purpose. So I think just with this one video and following the guy's approach, I bumped up the level of my sharpening one notch from where it was. Progress. I'd like to get better though and get the cheap kitchen knives to the point they can shave hair. Then I'll know I've arrived at sharpening nirvana. Look Mom, my kitchen knives can shave arm hair.

So from the discussion above, when I try "round 2" improving my technique some evening this week, I'll stick with the technique in the video that 42 posted, but here's additional stuff I'll pay attention to. Welcome comments on approach here, I'm trying to learn and open to feedback.

1. Reduce pressure
2. Try an increased progression of grits to refine the edge more. Shape: C stone. Apex-and-refine: F, EF, and then strop with my 8000 grit paste.
3. Use arms and shoulders more, keep fingers and wrists locked.

I would encourage you to use two hands on the blade, as demo'd by Jason in the video that Chris linked to and as demo'd by myself and many others. Angle control become crucial when you want to really improve your game, and consistency across a wide range of tools/sizes is just not possible holding the tool in one hand. Imagine trying to file the flattest surface you can on a brass slide - you would not hold the file in one hand if the brass were in a vice, nor would you hold the piece of brass in one hand and the file in the other.

I am not implying you cannot get very good results using an offhand method, absolutely some folks do. Only that you will likely find the "Japanese" two hand method offers most people a lot more control and you might be one of those people. If you are you'll see a faster jump in proficiency and you technique will be directly applicable to other tools like machetes and hatchets. You might also notice an improvement in your filing skills .

As far as approach, I grind alternating sides until the edge is reliably sticky along its entire length. I stop often and inspect to see that the grind is even and is advancing from the shoulder toward the edge and to feel the edge with a three finger test. Once it is sticky I'll stop to do a close visual inspection of the very edge. I might lean on the stone a little - 2 lbs of pressure tops. Once I get close to resetting the bevel I drop way off to about 4-8 ounces, maybe less for the final wipes.

I do not care if I raise a burr or not, deburring is accomplished by a few very light leading passes at a higher angle, maybe 5 degrees per side, and then back down to the original angle for a few passes to erase any unintended microbevel. Sharpening to a burr or not has zero proven effect one way or the other, but some folks do have considerable difficulty removing the burr cleanly (I know I did when I started out) and will do better avoiding it as much as practical.

I do not destress the edge either, as there are no stresses built up in the steel that need removing unless you have rolled the edge on a rock or glass "cutting" board. If you are using the plateau method, the destress step will be a big help for the aforementioned reasons - visual indexing. Plateau method is basically the application of a microbevel on an edge where the base reset stonework intentionally stopped just shy of the apex.

Disclaimer, Brent Beach has info on his site that would lead one to believe you should neither destress nor produce a burr when sharpening - his rationale makes a lot of sense but I have yet to see a difference in my own testing:
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/jig faq 02.html#thebest


Once the edge is set, I work through a progression. Oftentimes I will go right from a coarse or extra-coarse to a fine or very fine stone and microbevel at 2 degrees approx higher per side. More passes will refine the edge more, a few passes will leave one with a nice catchy edge that is thinner across than what was left at the last coarse level. This approach works best if the edge has been reset to < 30° inclusive. I do not microbevel unless it is on a finer stone.

Once microbeveled I might give it a few light passes on a strop, or maybe just strop it on paper to shine it up and make sure all the burrs are gone. This edge should easily shave arm hair and if done with care should just treetop individual hairs, even if going from an extra coarse to microbevel on extra fine (though it might take a number of extra passes on the extra-fine). On low RC Western kitchen knife like a modern Chicago Cutlery, you can use the bottom unglazed ring on a coffee cup or mixing bowl for the coarse stone and microbevel on the glazed lip. Done well this alone will give you an armhair shaving edge. On higher RC steel or higher carbide, this method works not so much.

If shooting for a higher level of pressure cutting goodness such as a razor or woodworking blade (and higher levels of hairwhittling etc), additional progressions become much more important to eliminate the variations along the edge - for a utility edge only two stones, maybe three if a real coarse one was needed to reset the bevel. A jump over the medium grade stone is perfectly fine performance wise. Those irregularities are a big help in drawing cut and extend the life of most knife steels if used for a lot of draw cutting. They reduce the life if doing a lot of press cutting.

I do find diamonds on some of the gummier, low RC stainless to be problematic but it can certainly be done. Consider, diamonds are harder than other abrasives but not necessarily sharper. On low RC or low carbide content steel they won't work any better or worse than somewhat glazed Aluminum Oxide in most cases.

Some additional freehand control tips and thinking behind them:

And in action on a single stone sharpening job:

Study your hands as you go and look to see where there's excess wobble. Once the low hanging fruit is picked, quality gains will be harder to come by, based on increasing levels of angle and pressure control, and observational skill.

 

[maximus83]

Woo hoo! Finally some real progress. Got the cheapo kitchen knife to arm-hair shaving sharp. Progression of DMT grits to get there: C/F/EF

I did try the following things as well: use two-handed pressure on the blade, and applied less pressure.

Don't know if the following pic shows the edge very well, I'm sure it's not WE or EP cosmetically beautiful. Anyway, I got the cutting results I wanted.

 

[maximus83]

Really if you can't read a blade to see what's wrong with it you're going to just be floundering around way longer than you need to and getting all kinds of frustrated. Edge literacy is the foundation of good sharpening, whether freehand OR guided.

I agree with this. Not that I have freehand all figured out, but there were definitely several things I was doing wrong that I've corrected and now getting improved results. One of them was I didn't know what to look for on my edge, beyond just doing tests like push-cuts or whatever. I picked up this idea for looking at reflection on the edge from one of the linked videos, and this item really helped. While I was 'shaping' my cheap kitchen knife on a coarse stone, after each iteration of scrubbing both sides, I'd check the edge. There was a "stubborn" spot that just kept reflecting, so I really worked on that spot. Once I did that, the reflection was gone, and it only took about 2 minutes of doing slices on the F and EF stones to get the blade hair-popping sharp. In this case of this crappy knife, all the work was done on the coarse stone, the actual sharpening step was the easy part.

 

[maximus83]

Can somebody please advise me on the scrubbing technique, or point me the best video (whether already linked here, or elsewhere) that could answer this question concisely?

Here's something I realized last night: I'm not having too much problem with doing "slices" on the stones during the sharpening step, but I did have significant challenges with the shaping/scrubbing work on the coarse stones. Why?

So I'm left handed, and when scrubbing the side of the blade where the scrubbing motion is going away from me, that's my "preferred" or comfortable side of the blade. I felt like I had full control, able to keep the angle consistent, and got a fairly nice--what do you call it?--"secondary bevel" on that side. When I flip the blade over to do the other side, obviously I'm scrubbing by pulling it back towards myself. That's where things really go downhill, I'm nowhere near as consistent and I had trouble keeping the angle steady across the whole surface of the blade.

So here's the question: during shaping/scrubbing, when I flip the blade to what (for me) would be the "weak" side where I don't have as good control, is it correct to be scrubbing back towards myself on that side? Or should I try a different approach, like scrubbing away from myself just as I did on the other side, but in this case, I'd have to switch and use my RH as the primary control hand. Basically, I'm trying to figure out the most efficient technique to scrub the "weak" side of the blade and still maintain consistent angles.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Can somebody please advise me on the scrubbing technique, or point me the best video (whether already linked here, or elsewhere) that could answer this question concisely?

Here's something I realized last night: I'm not having too much problem with doing "slices" on the stones during the sharpening step, but I did have significant challenges with the shaping/scrubbing work on the coarse stones. Why?

So I'm left handed, and when scrubbing the side of the blade where the scrubbing motion is going away from me, that's my "preferred" or comfortable side of the blade. I felt like I had full control, able to keep the angle consistent, and got a fairly nice--what do you call it?--"secondary bevel" on that side. When I flip the blade over to do the other side, obviously I'm scrubbing by pulling it back towards myself. That's where things really go downhill, I'm nowhere near as consistent and I had trouble keeping the angle steady across the whole surface of the blade.

So here's the question: during shaping/scrubbing, when I flip the blade to what (for me) would be the "weak" side where I don't have as good control, is it correct to be scrubbing back towards myself on that side? Or should I try a different approach, like scrubbing away from myself just as I did on the other side, but in this case, I'd have to switch and use my RH as the primary control hand. Basically, I'm trying to figure out the most efficient technique to scrub the "weak" side of the blade and still maintain consistent angles.

That's what I'd suggest. It's what I trained my hands for, for exactly the same reasons. I was noticing obvious differences in held angle and width & uniformity of the bevels and such, when trying to rely only on my dominant hand for control, and trying to change the direction of the stroke with that hand.

Takes some time, but training your non-dominant (weak side) hand to mirror exactly what your strong hand is doing will pay off. In doing so myself, I even discovered my 'finesse' and light touch now seem a tad better with my 'weak' hand, than with my 'strong' hand. My dominant hand is still literally 'stronger' and doesn't fatigue as easily as my other hand. But, I'm finding that my bevels look a bit cleaner, and my finishing touch is lighter with my non-dominant hand now. So, now I'm working to help my 'strong' hand do what my 'weak' hand has learned to do a little better.


David

 

[maximus83]

That makes sense, I'm gonna try to learn to use my other hand when I flip the blade so that all the scrubbing/shaping work is going AWAY from me.

So carrying this out to its logical end: I assume this also applies to the slicing/sharpening stage. Might as well just change hands whenever you flip the blade so that ALL the sharpening motions are going away from you for consistency, true?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That makes sense, I'm gonna try to learn to use my other hand when I flip the blade so that all the scrubbing/shaping work is going AWAY from me.

So carrying this out to its logical end: I assume this also applies to the slicing/sharpening stage. Might as well just change hands whenever you flip the blade so that ALL the sharpening motions are going away from you for consistency, true?

True. I always switch hands when switching sides on the blade, for sharpening on stones/hones. Only exception for me, is when I'm stropping, as I often just quickly flip the blade around in my dominant hand. But that's a minor exception, and it doesn't run the same level of risk for inconsistency in bevels and such, on just the strop.

For me personally, I've always preferred the edge facing toward me on the stones, as I like to actually see the apex & bevels making flush contact. But that's an individual preference thing; do what works best for you.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

That makes sense, I'm gonna try to learn to use my other hand when I flip the blade so that all the scrubbing/shaping work is going AWAY from me.

So carrying this out to its logical end: I assume this also applies to the slicing/sharpening stage. Might as well just change hands whenever you flip the blade so that ALL the sharpening motions are going away from you for consistency, true?

YMMV

I started out swapping sides and then learned to use only one hand as the primary and the other as the pressure control hand. What I found it was easier to keep the hands using the same assignments and learn to do both sides, rather than teach my offhand to learn a new assignment. Try it both ways, it won't be easy to start either way but one will speak to you a little more clearly than the other after a bit of trying.

The freehand control tips video halfway up this page has most of my thoughts on it. I am still always looking for tweaks to improve with the goal being to make my freehand indistinguishable from a guided system.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

That's what I'd suggest. It's what I trained my hands for, for exactly the same reasons. I was noticing obvious differences in held angle and width & uniformity of the bevels and such, when trying to rely only on my dominant hand for control, and trying to change the direction of the stroke with that hand.

Takes some time, but training your non-dominant (weak side) hand to mirror exactly what your strong hand is doing will pay off. In doing so myself, I even discovered my 'finesse' and light touch now seem a tad better with my 'weak' hand, than with my 'strong' hand. My dominant hand is still literally 'stronger' and doesn't fatigue as easily as my other hand. But, I'm finding that my bevels look a bit cleaner, and my finishing touch is lighter with my non-dominant hand now. So, now I'm working to help my 'strong' hand do what my 'weak' hand has learned to do a little better.


David

I have exactly same result, where my weaker hand result is flatter and smoother than my dominant hand.

I thought I got my preference wrong all along (about dominant hand)

 

[maximus83]

You guys are right on that point, it was weird, I got a more consistent and cosmetically nicer looking edge on the side that I used my non-dominant hand for. What the heck is up with that?

 

[NJBillK]

You guys are right on that point, it was weird, I got a more consistent and cosmetically nicer looking edge on the side that I used my non-dominant hand for. What the heck is up with that?

Maybe you are more aware of what your hands are doing since you are trying to be extra careful.

It is a good thing to realize that you have that control readily available. Now you just have to control it evenly with unevenly distributed muscle mass and dexterity.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Maybe you are more aware of what your hands are doing since you are trying to be extra careful.

It is a good thing to realize that you have that control readily available. Now you just have to control it evenly with unevenly distributed muscle mass and dexterity.

Very likely this ^
It also points out the 'light touch' 'let the stone does the work' 'be consistent' importance. The weak hand has ligher touches and learning from the dominant hand experience it improved from there. Also (I guess) use of the dominant hand triggers false confidence in the mind, and I got careless.