French traditionnal knives

All this talk and no mention of the bee that represents this style. No pictures of the bee either, c'mon?

Here, though it's in fact a bee, we say the fly ("la mouche"). I have no explanation for that.


Damascus & French knives.
Apologies for the rather dum question (I'm only just into knives): can anyone explain the advantage of the `damascus` steel blade (I think that's what they call it)?
I am considering of purchasing a Laguiole hunting knife and would like to know whether the extra cost (for `damascus`blades) is worth the investment. Or are there other more important features I have to give priority? Thanks.

On a pocket knive, damascus is mainly for aesthetical enhancement. "Sandwich" steel blades are tougher than homogenious steel ones, for the edge can be of a greater hardness, and the sides more flexible (so the edge properties are better, and the blade is more resistant to bending). But these damascus blades with beautiful patterns are not strikingly better (or worst) than usual homogeious steel blades, though some say that the difference of hardness of the soft and hard layers produce like micro-serrations on the blade during sharpening, thus cuting better.

Notice that the damascus pattern is only revealed by the action of an acid. High carbon layers "rust" (in fact it's more like a patina, or a bronzing), as low carbon doesn't, then the pattern appears. So the damascus blades, in my opinion, are not for everyday use (sharpening may damage the tone difference, the blade could rust as damascus is often made with not-stainless steel, but if you are careful on these both things, no worry).They are perfect for collecting and showing. It's up to you to determine your needs, your budget, and, considering this, to buy an adapted pocket knife.
 
I agree with Madnum. Damascus is pretty due to its grain pattern, but for a user knife, a monosteel blade (carbon or stainless) is probably the way to go. You'll pay a lot more for damascus, and a knife that's going to actually be used (as opposed to just collected and looked at) is going to get scratched and beat up, etc. If you really love the look of damascus, there's certainly nothing wrong with it functionally, but it isn't superior (other than in looks, perhaps) to other steels.
 
It might be a fly, it's something I noticed once were present on all these knives. For some reason I just thought it was a bee. I think that the bee was in some way a "royal symbol" in France long ago, I might very well be wrong though.

Thanks for the pics btw, and the original post is great. i'd like to see more of this kind of thing. Thanks.
 
I have a few Laguioles, this is my favorite. It's a Fontenille Pataud by Gilles.
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To Madnumforce & G.Scott H.:
I'm seriously grateful for the explanations. I would never ever have guessed that the extra money (pretty substantial in fact) to pay for damascus-blades is in fact 'mainly for aesthetical enhancement'. Djeezes, there's a lot to learn for me, but I'm getting hooked. Again, thanks so much.
 
Here, though it's in fact a bee, we say the fly ("la mouche"). I have no explanation for that.

If i well remember "la mouche", the fly, is a cutlery french term which designates the part of the spring which applies to the blade tang, there where, on a Laguiole, there is a bee.
We could say: on a Laguiole, the fly is a bee.

dantzk.
 
Laguioles around here only come in what they proudly proclaim to be "440A carbon steel hardened to 54-56 RC" do they have better steels elsewhere?
 
Laguioles around here only come in what they proudly proclaim to be "440A carbon steel hardened to 54-56 RC" do they have better steels elsewhere?

Besides the 440A the laguioles makers use mainly the 12c27 and the xc75 (the french 1075 carbon steel). The french average laguiole purchaser focuse much more on the handle than on the steel. At the beginnings the steel used were soft carbon steel coming from old used scythes and sickles, this kind of tool, the handles were made of cow horn.

dantzk.
 
Those aren't bad steels if they're hardened enough, I don't know about other people but if I'm paying $165 for a knife I'd like more than a nice handle :)
 
I agree, not bad steels. Look at this link, look at the prices for a 12c27 steel blade, what makes the prices?

http://www.fontenille-pataud.com/indexuk.php

Not for you, not for me. For somes purchasers, certainly.

dantzk.

If we take this one for exemple (a relatively basic model):
http://www.fontenille-pataud.com/laguiole_12_cm_real_horn_tip_P441xuk.html
the price of 132EUR is not especially expensive. Laguioles made in France tend to be overpriced compared to other kind of knives, certainly because they know the asian made one can't match regarding quality. But if you convert the price in USD, sure it looks expensive for an american. To have a real idea of what it the cost for a french, think more about 150/170 USD (life is a bit more expensive here than in the US, as i understood speaking with an american girl i know). But to explain a bit the price, we can notice: file works on the blade, spring and bee, mirror polished bolsters (yes, it takes much more time than a mate finish), many rivets (every rivet you add increase the chances to break the scales), and a famous brand in cutlery world.


Besides the 440A the laguioles makers use mainly the 12c27 and the xc75 (the french 1075 carbon steel). The french average laguiole purchaser focuse much more on the handle than on the steel. At the beginnings the steel used were soft carbon steel coming from old used scythes and sickles, this kind of tool, the handles were made of cow horn.

Don't you think you are exaggerating a bit? At the beginnings, the blades used to be made of bronze, and before that of stone. These kinds of pocket knives became popular with the industrial revolution, that's what i would really call "the beginnings" for these knives, as i would say Daimler and Ford are the beginnings of cars, much more than horse pulled vehicles. Anyway, it's true that we aren't that much into fashions about steels. We use common and handy steels that proved their value, and don't experiment or vary much. But we care much about some details like file works, the material of the scales, etc... But the Laguiole still can be a everyday use knife, and then we care about the "feeling" of the spring and the ergonomy of the handle. For 132EUR, it is quite moderate. Some don't hesitate to pay much more for industrial made knives (Spyderco Caly or Para-military, for exemple, though i admit they are really good, but in these cases, we can also ask ourself if it worth the price).
 
Not all Laguiole type knives are that expensive either. Basic models by Forge de Laguiole and others can be had for about $75 American on the internet. Considering that these knives are mostly hand made by very small companies, the prices aren't all that bad. :thumbup:
 
Sandvik 12c27 is a good steel. My fathers EDC is a "Laguiole Tradition" with 12c27 blade and olive wood handles. No complaints whatsoever. Legal to carry (no lock), keeps an edge and is easy to sharpen.

@madnumforce: Great thread! French traditional knives is an interesting subject. Why don't you tell us about other traditional knives? (Nontron for example?)
 
But to explain a bit the price, we can notice: file works on the blade, spring and bee, mirror polished bolsters (yes, it takes much more time than a mate finish), many rivets (every rivet you add increase the chances to break the scales), and a famous brand in cutlery world.

That's what i said, we can explain the price by the scale materials and the works made on the handles. As far as you know what you buy, why not?

Don't you think you are exaggerating a bit?

No, i've owned and used an old model made of soft carbon steel, it was a true razor very easy to sharpen.

Anyway, it's true that we aren't that much into fashions about steels. We use common and handy steels that proved their value, and don't experiment or vary much. But we care much about some details like file works, the material of the scales, etc... But the Laguiole still can be a everyday use knife, and then we care about the "feeling" of the spring and the ergonomy of the handle. For 132EUR, it is quite moderate. Some don't hesitate to pay much more for industrial made knives (Spyderco Caly or Para-military, for exemple, though i admit they are really good, but in these cases, we can also ask ourself if it worth the price).

All that is true and i'm one of those who prefer, for the same price, an industrial made knives with a high quality steel rather than a beautiful handcrafted handle with steels i've used for years and years. To each his own.

You will find a wide range of opinions on this forum with nice acknowledged people; be wellcome.

dantzk.
 
Here is a new step on the track of traditionnal french knives.
In this post, i will talk about relatively old models of knives (XVIIIe century and earlier, but as i said in the first post, it's very hard to find any archeologic proof of their existence, as the social elites, writers and such did not care much about the activities of farmers, and as these knives where meant to be used, not to show off and collected in conservatives conditions). Today: the Nontron, the "Capucin" and "Montpellier" models.





The Nontron
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This very traditionnal pocket knive is one of the oldest we have in France. It originaly come from the département of "Dordogne" in the région of "Aquitaine" (between the Loire river and the Pyrénées mountains, south west of France, Dordogne is in the northern part of Aquitaine). It became popular during the XVIIIth century (it means it was existing before), and still produced nowadays (by the Chaperon company mainly, in the town of Nontron, precisely ;) ) and quite famous.

Now, the knife itself. The most striking feature on this knife is the full "turned" (don't hit me if it's not the right word) boxwood handle with traditionnal heat etchings. I don't know if you use this wood much in America, but it's terrific. I've read it's just under ebony, concerning density, and in fact it takes a wonderful polish. We also notice the rotating lock like on the Opinel, we call this part of the knife the "virole". But as it's only made of steel on the Opinel, here it's made of brass mainly (just a steel plate on the flat side of the cylinder). Another feature is the shape of the blade, with the tip sligthly downward the axis of the blade, thus making a relatively straight edge. In my opinion, this shape is a remain of some scramasax (or seax, as you use to call it), or maybe is it simply functionnality that leads to this design. This knife comes in many sizes, some so small they enter in a nut or hazelnut shell!!! The pommel have also four different shapes. This one on the picture is called "sabot" (clog), another is simply a ball, one another virole (so a brass cylinder at both ends of the knife), and the last one is what we call "queue de carpe" (carp's tail), and is like a symetrical sabot. Oh, and i was almost forgeting, the blade is often carbon, but i think we can find stainless.

I had one of them in the hands, and they look pretty good, though simple and rustic. The blade comes razor sharp, though the edge is thicker than the Opinel (flat grind as well). The handle is well polished and have a really unique feeling once in the hand (it's soft, warm... woody). We see it's a crafted knife, not an industrial product like the Douk and Opinel are. It "smells" historic, ancient, that's something we appreciate here. The rotating ring lock is as reliable as on the opinel, and some details like the steel plate make look this knife trusty. And for less than 45EUR here (70USD, maybe), it makes a nice present for a friend, or to put in your own pocket.





The Capucin and the Montpellier
capucin%20corne%203.jpg

montpellier%20corne.jpg


These knives are most certainly the older designs we can find. There is only one blade, one handle, and two pins, that's why we call this system "deux clous" (two nail/pins). In fact, to be absolutely franc, there is an older and simplier design we call "piémontais" (from a région of Italy) where there is only one pin (axis of the blade), and where a protruding blade tang simply lies on the handle, held in place by the thumb (as for the "deux clous"). Capucin and Montpellier had both handle in various materials (but often cow horn tip), unknown steels, and extremely rustic manufacturing. But after the industrial revolution, companies took these designs and produced them with accpetable and standard quality. Nowadays, Cognet (manufacturer of the Douk Douk, i remind you) is the only one i know still producing it, but i would be happy (and unsurprised) to be wrong. Steel is carbon (XC70 in France... guess you would call it 1065 or something like that) and grind is flat. On these knives, no corkscrew or awl, they always stay as simple as possible.

The most important problem on these knives is the absolute lack of any lock or blade stop. It can collapse on your finger during the smallest moment of inattention (though normally it's riveted tight, so there is enough friction to limit damages). Hopefully, they have been LOT of progress since that. The main interest is the very historical design. And here as well, my theory is that both blade shapes, especially the Montpellier's one, comes from seax. We can notice that these knives are relatively expensive: almost 70EUR (100USD), especially considering that they are dangerous to use. But, well, i presented them mainly as curiosities. I don't think in the land of the patent pending lock knife, such obsolete cutting things could have any success.



Next time, i will present more recent types of knives, mounted not in a single piece of horn or wood, but with liners, scales and rivets. Hope this post was interesting.
 
Tres biens, Madnumforce! As an American who had the opportunity to live in your country (in Nancy) for a while, when I was younger, I do appreciate many of the fine things the French have given us, including their fine cutlery for sure! I am lucky enough to have several Opinels (including a horn-handled #8, purchased while in Paris from Courty's store) and my prized Laguiole.

When I look closely at the Cognet Capucin, I can see where several models of William Henry's seem to have gotten some of their inspiration. They are wonderful knives (the Cognets and the William Henrys)!

Great thread, Madnumforce, and keep up the great work!

Merci,
3G
 
> Wanted to resurrect this long-dead thread and say that I just ordered a Nontron:

I have the same one: a very nice EDC with a special feel to it. Very light as well and the blade is dependable 12C27 (the de facto standard for quality knives in France). Please post back what you think of it!
 
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