Friction Forged Blades : CATRA tests

When you say the carbides are "just chromium" could it be that you are overlooking the vanadium in D2?

Sorry I was sloppy there, D2 has about 1% Vanadium compared to 9% for S90V thus the main source of wear resistance in D2 is the chromium carbides. If all of those were dissolved then you would have basically 1 vs 9 in vanadium and all then you are comparing is the hardness difference of 3-4 HRC points. I would expect that to be significant but surprised it is that high. The only thing I can think is that the very fine grain structure prevents tear out and you are testing edge stability. But if this was the case I would expect AEB-L to be similar. Have you used it or a similar steel at about 65 HRC?

-Cliff
 
The grain size in standard hardened D2 is 5 microns, the Friction Forged D2 has a grain size of .5 microns. This may be part of the reason for the extreme edge holding ability and in my opinion is the main reason for the initial sharpness of the blades. Early on in my tests (1979) we compared three steel types at differences in Rc hardness of two points. The three steels were D5, D2 and 154CM which are run at 60-61 Rc. When backed off to 58Rc there was an edge holding loss of between 15 and 20 percent. As with many other attributes of the friction forged D2, the increase in hardness alone doesn’t account for the 3-4+ times increase in edge holding ability. It must be a combination of grain size, distribution of carbides and hardness.

The knives we had at the Tejon Ranch hunt were so sharp that experienced guides were cutting themselves. Guides and hunters were sticking knives through the sheaths because there was no give when the blade hit leather. All seemed to agree that those knives were the sharpest they had ever seen.

I'm not sure that AEB-L will achieve 65 Rc and even if it did it would not have sufficient flexible strength to survive as a knife edge.
 
Just called Diamond Blades and spoke with Kandi, a very nice and helpful lady, about whether it was possible to order any of the knives yet. She said they are taking some preorders or she could notify me when they were ready to start shipping. They plan on being able to start sending them out in a month or so and the web page should be up any day now. I provided my mailing address and when they get the catalog they'll send one out to me.

So it looks like we will be waiting a while yet before we can do some actual hands on testing. In addition to the four models mentioned elsewhere on the web they are planning a fifth knife with a tactical design, whatever that means.
 
Thanks for the info, Wayne. Sounds like your results substantiate the test results they have released, and then some. It's hard to believe any steel could be that much of an improvement over Phil's CPM-10V.
 
The grain size in standard hardened D2 is 5 microns, the Friction Forged D2 has a grain size of .5 microns. This may be part of the reason for the extreme edge holding ability and in my opinion is the main reason for the initial sharpness of the blades.

D2 has a huge grain size normally however steels like 52100 can have micron grain sizes of the hardness quoted here and thus that can not explain the difference seen.

I'm not sure that AEB-L will achieve 65 Rc and even if it did it would not have sufficient flexible strength to survive as a knife edge.

AEB-L can reach 65 HRC (see Landes) and has the optimal configuration for acute edges in terms of sharpness, far ahead of D2 in any way of processing in terms of push cutting sharpness. It also has near maximal ability to hold a fine sharpness as measured mechanically by Landes.

-Cliff
 
D2 has a huge grain size normally however steels like 52100 can have micron grain sizes of the hardness quoted here and thus that can not explain the difference seen.


AEB-L can reach 65 HRC (see Landes) and has the optimal configuration for acute edges in terms of sharpness, far ahead of D2 in any way of processing in terms of push cutting sharpness. It also has near maximal ability to hold a fine sharpness as measured mechanically by Landes.

-Cliff

Clilff,
Have you ever actually observed the grain size in a piece of properly hardened D2? I don't see how you would call it "huge" unless the only information you have is a photo in a book. Get yourslf a 60Rc D2 planer blade, notch and break, then observe the grain.

Friction forged D2 is half a micron, have you seen 52100 can achieve that? Do you realize that .5 micron is so small that it looks like a blank piece of paper at 1,000X?

Most knives are used in a slicing mode, rarely by being pushed straight through something. That's why my edge holding test on rope is a slicing cut.

Wayne G.
 
Mr. Goddard, (or do you prefer just Wayne?)

Welcome to the forums. I feel somewhat obligated to apologize on behalf of the group that someone hasn't already said that. I know I certainly welcome your knowledge & experience, and look forward to your input here.

As you were, gentlemen.
 
Good call possum. My apologies as well.

Welcome to the forums Mr. Goddard. This community can only benefit from someone with your experience and knowledge. :D
 
Choice of abrasives, time on the abrasive, pressure on the abrasive, many factors can easily favor chromium carbide vs vanadium carbide steels as the latter is much harder. For example, simply use an abrasive which is harder than chromium carbide but softer than vanadium carbide and the high vanadium steels will not have equal sharpness and have much lower edge retention.

All the steels were sharpened on 600 grit diamond belts, with a mechanical fixture used to establish sharpening angle. The wire edge, or burr was then removed on a cardboard wheel with chromium oxide compound. No games were intended to be played.

For a knife cutting through biological materials (meat, hair, hide, hemp) I personally believe that the force required to initiate cutting is more important than the amount of material cut per stroke on a CATRA ERT machine. In particular, steels containing large carbides lose their sharp edge, but continue to cut on a CATRA ERT tester because the carbide particles act like teeth on a rod saw, and continue to cut under the high normal force, even though the knife isn't even close to shaving.

I like to cut with a knife that's shaving sharp. The CATRA REST tester is used to test razor edges. Sure, it's a push test, but so is a shaving test.

The presentation presented at Tejon Ranch is available at this link:
http://www.et.byu.edu/~sorensen/Tejon%20Presentation.pdf

A preprint of the technical paper describing the Friction Forging technology as applied to D2 is found here:
http://www.et.byu.edu/~sorensen/TMS%202007%20D2%20Processing.pdf

If you'd like raw data, I'd be happy to provide it.

I won't claim to be perfect, but we certainly haven't monkeyed with the data to try to get it to support a claim of improved performance. We've worked to make a knife with improved performance, and let the data be whatever it turns out to be.

I repeat, every steel that was tested, including the FFD2, was sharpened with the same procedure, which was to sharpen the best way we knew how for a production knife. None of the steels, including the FFD2, was tested to determine an optimum edge geometry for that steel. So if different steels have different optimum edge geometries, the tests didn't control for that. But the test was equivalent for all steels. We picked a geometry, sharpened to that geometry, and tested for performance.

Before somebody thinks we're trying to hide something, I'll point out that we didn't use CATRA media to wear the edge, we used hemp rope. But again, all knives were subjected to the same tests.

I'm happy to provide any information I can to help you do your own analyses.

Carl Sorensen
 
I've read carefully through Cliff's page on edge retention, and I can see that he's thought a lot about it. I commend him for putting his thoughts on paper where we can all see them.

I don't agree with all of his thoughts, however. I'm working on some feedback, and I'll post it when I get it done.

One major disagreement I have is that Cliff's definition of edge retention is normalized by the original edge sharpness. That is, he defines edge retention as (Cutting Ability at Time t)/(Cutting Ability at time 0), which gives you a percentage of original sharpness. With this definition, I can get great edge retention just by making a lousy initial edge. In fact, using a CATRA ERT test, I could get an edge retention of 120% or so by using an alloy with large carbides (such as Talonite) that is sharpened to a very high included edge angle (120 degrees, for example). As the edge wears, the carbides would stick out and cut like a rod saw, performing better than the original edge. But this would be a terrible knife.

I'm preparing some thoughts on sharpness and how it relates to edge geometry, as measured in cutting of biological materials (like chicken breast). I'll get a link posted when I've got something that's readable completed.

Thanks for listening,

Carl Sorensen
 
Just plain Wayne here.

Mr. Goddard used to live around the corner from us. His first name was George and he was my father. He is with our Creator now, lived to be very close to 93 years old.

Wayne
 
Are you Kidding? I would love to have some numbers to play with! Haven't opened excel since the semester ended. :D
 
The above denotes and explains friction forging very well. But it also explains that the performance is only skin deep. It seems to me that friction forging of only the edge is basically like case hardening the edge or hammer forging or rolling the edge only.

The Friction Forged zone is not "skin-deep". It's the full thickness of the blade, and extends for about 1/4 inch from the edge of the blade toward the spine.

We've not noticed any tendency to fracture at the edge of the FF zone, either in knives or any other applications.

Carl Sorensen
 
We will also get some videos of the process, and other technology information, up on our website next week so people can take a look.

Tracy Nelson
 
WOW more data is asked for and it is freely given. With there customer service this good I give a big thumbs up.
 
db: Agreed. Definitely more than one could reasonably expect to receive from a manufacturer. :thumbup:
 
Both those fellas above are PhD's(tnelson, cds4byu).

Carl, MIT, and an Associate Professor/Department Associate Chair

Tracy, Ohio State University, Associate Professor

Both at BYU, it is all in the links.

Thank you gentlemen, both, for coming to enlighten us!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks for participating, and thanks for the great links, Professor Sorenson. My apologies as well to Prof. Nelson for not connecting the dots & realizing who TNelson was. I just figured he was another dumb Norwegian like me who happened to make sense.
 
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