Friend Arrested... Help

JNieporte · Jun 2, 2009

I'll post updates as they are available to me. The city is Cincinnati, and there's still no mention in ORC or the city laws about a blade length limit. It's just not specified. He is being charged with carrying a concealed weapon and the stop sign violation. As explained by his lawyer (public defense), any weapons charge here, no matter how minor, is grounds for revoking (or in his case, not getting) your handgun permit.

To the poster (forget who, don't really care) who commented about him being a thug: this guy has no criminal record, even as a juvenile. He is married with two daughters. He served in Iraq, in combat, as a Ranger, three times. I'm proud to claim him as a friend and as someone who I stood beside when Ansar al-Islam told everyone who wasn't 100% with them to leave Iraq or be killed. He's not a thug, a wannabe, or a criminal. If everyone who carries a knife is a thug, then BladeForums is worse than Compton.

boring · Jun 2, 2009

I thought the knife laws in ohio were...Pocket knives with less than 4" blade, no fixed blades concealed, no switchblades at all. I am wondering what the bottom line is...guess we all are.

zatoichi37 · Jun 2, 2009

Isn't there something in the constitution that's against illegal searches and seizures? I hope he at least gets his knife back. And yes, sue the officer/dept. He's infringing upon your rights, man. Lots of cops do this, and it's not supposed to happen. We are not living in communist china/russia here. We are supposed to be free with the right to bear arms.

Furthermore, the knife was concealed because he was in the car and the officer didn't see it, but on following the officer's ordered he stepped out and then it wasn't 'concealed'. I'd say that he wasn't committing a crime until the officer made him do it. Lastly, who gives about a pocket knife. He's served his country with 3 tours in iraq and doesn't need to put up with this shit. This is what happened to Rambo. He didn't commit any crime, but the police kept pushing him because they could.

zignal_zero · Jun 3, 2009

it's not even about the 4th ammendmant (yet). if the man was arrested for something that WASN'T a crime, he has a case. i am a LEO, i am PRO LEO, i do not support people looking for a hand out because a cop was mean to them. but, for God's sake, if the man was honestly arrested for a crime that doesn't EXIST, sue the ever loving shit out of that department.... not for a 4th ammendmant violation, for illegally IMPRISONING a civilian they were SWORN TO PROTECT. this cannot be tolerated, everytime it is a piece of what so many of us devote our lives to protecting is lost.

Donna V · Jun 3, 2009

snipped..

JNieporte said:
I'm proud to claim him as a friend and as someone who I stood beside when Ansar al-Islam told everyone who wasn't 100% with them to leave Iraq or be killed.

i want to thank yu for your service im sure its hard to do what you did &then come back to get looked at like a terorist. if your friend is who i think he is then the police might have a long legl fight on their hands.

BoxANT · Jun 3, 2009

What a horrible misuse of power.

Hope things turn out ok, keep us posted.

MORIMOTOM · Jun 3, 2009

zatoichi37 said:
Isn't there something in the constitution that's against illegal searches and seizures? I hope he at least gets his knife back. And yes, sue the officer/dept. He's infringing upon your rights, man. Lots of cops do this, and it's not supposed to happen. We are not living in communist china/russia here. We are supposed to be free with the right to bear arms.

Furthermore, the knife was concealed because he was in the car and the officer didn't see it, but on following the officer's ordered he stepped out and then it wasn't 'concealed'. I'd say that he wasn't committing a crime until the officer made him do it. Lastly, who gives about a pocket knife. He's served his country with 3 tours in iraq and doesn't need to put up with this shit. This is what happened to Rambo. He didn't commit any crime, but the police kept pushing him because they could.

what in the hell are you talking about?

are you really comparing what happened to a fictional character to what happened to josh's friend?

the highlighted portion is particularly nonsensical. he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon. what exactly did the officer make him do?

read the rest of the thread, we don't know why the officer had the friend step out of the vehicle, and there certainly has been nothing posted by josh to justify any type of lawsuit as of yet.

zignal_zero · Jun 4, 2009

not jumping to any conclusions about your friend, but there could be more to this. generally speaking, if somone gets a really weak charge or eats a BS ticket it has alot to do with the interaction between that subject and the cop.

one of my friends, who just got back from Iraq HATES cops and makes that apparent everytime they're in contact with him. he's a prime candidate for getting arrested on a charge that someonelse would've caught a break for. i have another friend, who also just got back from Iraq, he's just the opposite - very respectful, doesn't do anything to suggest he doesn't acknowledge their authority, etc. every encounter he has with LEO goes smooth.

not suggesting your friend "asked for it" but, over a couple of beers, you might wanna see if he can tell you EXACTLY how the dialogue went.

as a general rule - NEVER try to out-asshole a cop, it's a losing battle.

JNieporte · Jun 4, 2009

zignal_zero said:
not jumping to any conclusions about your friend, but there could be more to this. generally speaking, if somone gets a really weak charge or eats a BS ticket it has alot to do with the interaction between that subject and the cop.

one of my friends, who just got back from Iraq HATES cops and makes that apparent everytime they're in contact with him. he's a prime candidate for getting arrested on a charge that someonelse would've caught a break for. i have another friend, who also just got back from Iraq, he's just the opposite - very respectful, doesn't do anything to suggest he doesn't acknowledge their authority, etc. every encounter he has with LEO goes smooth.

not suggesting your friend "asked for it" but, over a couple of beers, you might wanna see if he can tell you EXACTLY how the dialogue went.

as a general rule - NEVER try to out-asshole a cop, it's a losing battle.

My friend was an MP before he switched MOSs, so I'm hoping he acknowledges and respects a LEO's authority. I wasn't there, so I can just tell what I know, but he doesn't seem like the type to be an ass to the police. We're going shooting this weekend, so maybe I can get some more details out of him. I know he has secured a lawyer though :thumbup:

joe-bob · Jun 4, 2009

This seems like a pretty messed up situation. I hope it all works out well.

Merost · Jun 5, 2009

I'm not a cop in Ohio, but this whole thing sounds fishy. Like a big part of the puzzle is missing. Why don't you get a copy of the police report, which is public record, and find out what it says.

The instances of an honest citizens being stopped for simple traffic violations and then being arrested for carrying a pocket knife seems kind of bizarre. I have never arrested or heard of an honest citizen arrested for a weapons violations. Usually, people who are charged with such offenses because they did something stupid to attract the attention of the police, i.e. rob a liquor store, sell drugs, etc.

peanuts · Jun 5, 2009

Sounds like a really suss arrest, I would think in any sane court your friend has a good shot. Glad to hear he got a lawyer.

TOM1960 · Jun 5, 2009

JNieporte said:
I just got a phone call informing me that a friend was arrested for carrying his Spyderco Endura. Let me explain his background and situation...

He is 27 years old, never arrested, never did drugs or alcohol. Does not have a concealed carry permit. Former U.S. Army Ranger with three combat tours in Iraq.

He did not have a firearm on him at the time. He got pulled over at midnight for running a stop sign, and stopped immediately. He gave his DL, proof of insurance, and registration to the officer. He was asked to get out of the vehicle (before his information was ran) and the officer saw the pocket clip of the Endura. He handcuffed my friend, removed the knife and opened it, then told him that it was illegal because of the blade length and the fact that it was concealed. He says that even though the clip was visible, it was considered concealed because police are trained to look for things like that and the knife itself was in the pocket, thus it was concealed. My friend informed the officer that there is no blade length limit here (true) and the officer responded by saying he wasn't aware of that, so he had to go on what he knew. Thus, my friend was taken to county lock-up overnight for possession of a concealed weapon. He was bonded out this morning, and is wondering what to do about this charge. He is due to go to court soon, and doesn't have the funds to pay a lawyer for all of the legal work required to get out of this.

Any advice?

If his papers were in order, he was not intoxicated or impaired in any way and there was no contraband in plain view, it would be extremely difficult for the officer to articulate the reasons for ordering a motorist to exit his/her vehicle or to search the vehicle. Violations of constitutional rights to privacy. If the knife was illegal to possess under state law and was in plain view, then the arrest would be completely justified. There is a good chance that your friend's lawyer will be successful in a motion to suppress evidence (the knife) as "fruit of the poisonous tree". Even if the case is dismissed, it is very rare for a judge to order the prosecutor to return a confiscated knife, gun, etc. to the defendant. At the very least, the government received the gift of a Spyderco. It will end up as part of some officer's collection.

glistam · Jun 5, 2009

And please tell us what happens when it's over. Anyone reading this sub-forum knows how frustrating and complex knife laws are, so a real-world experience would be very educational.

Merost · Jun 5, 2009

TOM1960 said:
If his papers were in order, he was not intoxicated or impaired in any way and there was no contraband in plain view, it would be extremely difficult for the officer to articulate the reasons for ordering a motorist to exit his/her vehicle or to search the vehicle. Violations of constitutional rights to privacy. If the knife was illegal to possess under state law and was in plain view, then the arrest would be completely justified. There is a good chance that your friend's lawyer will be successful in a motion to suppress evidence (the knife) as "fruit of the poisonous tree". Even if the case is dismissed, it is very rare for a judge to order the prosecutor to return a confiscated knife, gun, etc. to the defendant. At the very least, the government received the gift of a Spyderco. It will end up as part of some officer's collection.

There is very specific and recent supreme court case law that says police can order not the only the driver, but also any passengers to exit the vehicle if they wish and no burden of proof (reasonable suspicion) is required. That is common practice for some agencies or individual officers.

TOM1960 · Jun 5, 2009

Merost said:
There is very specific and recent supreme court case law that says police can order not the only the driver, but also any passengers to exit the vehicle if they wish and no burden of proof (reasonable suspicion) is required. That is common practice for some agencies or individual officers.

It is the search that is the issue. Illegal search will cause the evidence to be inadmissable in court. Perhaps the LEOs are aware of this but they figure that regardless of conviction or dismissal, the contraband in question (weapon or drug) is off the street for good. No judge will return an illegal item to a defendant, regardless of how it was discovered.

Merost · Jun 5, 2009

TOM1960 said:
It is the search that is the issue. Illegal search will cause the evidence to be inadmissable in court. Perhaps the LEOs are aware of this but they figure that regardless of conviction or dismissal, the contraband in question (weapon or drug) is off the street for good. No judge will return an illegal item to a defendant, regardless of how it was discovered.

I don't really see how this is a search situation. If everything happend as explained then the officer did not search to find the knife. If the knife clip was in plain view that he has the right to secure the weapon (terry frisk).

Don't get me wrong. If this incident really happened as explained then I think it is bull$hit. You have to enforce laws in the spirit of the law and use common sense.

Also, the knife was seized as evidence and if the charges are dismissed the knife should be returned to the owner, unless of course the state determines to the knife to be contraband (illegal).

Maybe you guys should leave those backasswards states and move to AZ. You won't have any problems here. The only prohibited weapon (besides the obvious ones, like explosives, etc) are numchucks, and you can possess those as long as you use them for martial arts practice and not beating up innocents victims.

TOM1960 · Jun 5, 2009

Merost said:
I don't really see how this is a search situation. If everything happend as explained then the officer did not search to find the knife. If the knife clip was in plain view that he has the right to secure the weapon (terry frisk).

Don't get me wrong. If this incident really happened as explained then I think it is bull$hit. You have to enforce laws in the spirit of the law and use common sense.

Also, the knife was seized as evidence and if the charges are dismissed the knife should be returned to the owner, unless of course the state determines to the knife to be contraband (illegal).

Maybe you guys should leave those backasswards states and move to AZ. You won't have any problems here. The only prohibited weapon (besides the obvious ones, like explosives, etc) are numchucks, and you can possess those as long as you use them for martial arts practice and not beating up innocents victims.

Agreed. If the knife turned out to be legal after all, then the guy should get himself a pit-bull of an attorney and sue the hell of the officer individually and the department that employs him. Needless to say, his chief will be quite upset when the sheriff hands him a copy of the civil summons/complaint. He will be even more upset when the local newspapers report that thanks to one numbskull cop, the taxpayers of that jurisdiction will be on the hook for a large money judgment. Chiefs hate such negative publicity, especially involving lawsuits and judgments.

gadgetgeek · Jun 5, 2009

zero, I'm very respectful of police, but I've been majorly chewed on 2 of the last three times I've dealt with them. one of the times was very close to mental torture for the two passengers of my car (lights in faces, hands on guns, insane lines of questioning) and the other i was nearly charged with not having insurance because my insurance company didn't see fit to provide me with the proper paperwork for several days, and the officer yelled at me for about 10 minutes, pretty scary to a 19 year old....
If that officer was just having a bad night, then yes sir no sir three bags full sir might not have cut it.
never assume.

zignal_zero · Jun 6, 2009

gadgetgeek said:
zero, I'm very respectful of police, but I've been majorly chewed on 2 of the last three times I've dealt with them. one of the times was very close to mental torture for the two passengers of my car (lights in faces, hands on guns, insane lines of questioning) and the other i was nearly charged with not having insurance because my insurance company didn't see fit to provide me with the proper paperwork for several days, and the officer yelled at me for about 10 minutes, pretty scary to a 19 year old....
If that officer was just having a bad night, then yes sir no sir three bags full sir might not have cut it.
never assume.

i don't. that's why i said "not jumping to any conclusions..." and "generally speakin..."

trust me, i know there are LEO's that do a poor job rep'n our team and i believe they need to be corrected just as much as the offenders do. this is why (properly used) civil lawsuits can benefit everyone. when the Dept. takes a hit, it will focus on (re)training it's officers which will mean better service for the people.

all i was saying is there are, GENERALLY, three sides to every story.

OP - keep us informed, we're all anxious to hear the outcome.