Friendly Warning - awooga142

[c.joe]

First off, I spoke with rycen and RevDevil and had their blessing to make this post (though it was not encouraged). But I really feel that I must share this with all of you.

I purchased a Paramilitary 2 from awooga142 (Jeremy) and the condition he stated said "Lnib besides the very nice sharpening job!"

Here is the original listing.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Spyderco-pm2-amp-amp-amp-amp-amp-merlin-Zt801

And a screenshot in case anything has changed. Screenshot was taken 05/13/2015 - 12:56am

I received the Paramilitary 2 on 05/12/15 and it was not LNIB as stated. When I read that an item is LNIB, I usually give the seller a good amount of forgiveness on how "Like" NIB it is. LNIB implies the knife might have been taken out to play with, fingerprints, maybe a scratch or two, and dust between the scales. His listing said "Lnib besides the very nice sharpening job!"

When I inspected the Paramilitary 2, there was a nasty stain on the G-10, wrench marks on the barrel spacer from his attempts at taking it apart (which voids the warranty), wrench marks on the lanyard barrel from his attempts at taking it apart, long scratches along both sides of the blade, stripped torx screws, and one non-original screw on the pocket clip (I received two silver screws, 1 black screw)


Pictures:

Stain on G-10

Wrench marks on barrel spacer and lanyard tube from his attempts at disassembling the knife.

Long scratches on both sides of the blade.

Stripped torx screws

And non-matching screws on the pocket clip

After going back and forth for a long time, he refunded my money but still refuses to reimburse my return shipping (which I couldn't care less about at this point). To those wondering, I was told I will receive a 25 point infraction if I left negative feedback because it was only for $5.25 so I neglected to do so.

That is not what I'm here to share however.

I am here to warn that his listing has not changed and the damages are still not fully disclosed. I doubt he learned his lesson.

He relisted his Paramilitary 2 under the following description "In good condition, has been sharpened" with no additional pictures.

Please use caution when dealing with this guy. If you are interested in purchasing his knives, be sure to ask for additional pictures and not to rely on his descriptions.


I must thank the moderators for investigating this matter personally.

Thank you for your time.
Chris

 

[asdf12345]

Some wise words on the topic:

That fact is that unless bladeforums forces a set way to in detail describe an item, the onus comes down to the buyer. If you don't like the description or pictures you can do 1 of 3 things: 1) Move along. Don't buy the item. No one is forcing you to buy the item. 2) Ask questions and/or for more pictures. If you are still not satisfied ask more questions or move along. This is a risk since the seller could potentially sell the item to someone else. 3) Buy the item with the description/pictures as is. This, of course, is a risk and not recommended. Be a big boy and don't cry foul when you knew you were taking a risk. If need be try to work it out with the seller or get paypal involved because you were at least smart enough to use paypal the right way.

Just like when you buy any used item (yes, these are all used, unless it is from the factory or a dealer it is used, NIB means jack squat) you are taking a risk. There are ways to mitigate that risk, the best being to not buy a poorly described item. Should people do their best to describe their knife? Hell yes. Is every one going to do their best to describe their knife? No way in hell. The buyer needs to take responsibility for protecting him or her self.

 

[c.joe]

Some wise words on the topic:

For the record, I was not looking for a new knife. I was looking for a knife to use so my acceptance of wear was high already. A description of "LNIB" implies that it might have been carried a few times and boxed up afterwards for sale. It might have a few carry marks. It sure as heck does not mean taken apart with a wrench and destroyed. Whenever I buy something LNIB, I am ready for minor imperfections. Not what you see above.

I always ask for better pictures when the seller does not provide a description. But if the seller posts LNIB, it better be "like new in box." I have had over 80 perfect transactions here and this has not happened once.

I appreciate your input as it is a good reminder to us all.

 

[MercyfulfateXX]

LNIB to means just that. I Don't expect scratches etc.

 

[RIPtastic]

Yup "LNIB" is just that. It is close to new as possible. That para is no where near the area of LNIB. I don't even think you can call it "good condition." Maybe fair condition would be more realistic.

 

[JR88FAN]

This is usually an indication to me personally of someone I won't buy a knife from.
I am not here to beat on the guy, but when I see this (below) I walk away.
To a dedicated knife flipper, LNIB means just what you got, because I really doubt he even understands or cares about any of this....

For Sale: Production Folders (Individual)392
Trade: Knives & Tools154
General Knife Discussion24
For Sale: Custom Knives (Individual)8
Automatic Knife / Switchblades6
For Sale: Automatic Knives (Individual)6
Wanted to Buy: Knives4
Wanted to buy: Gadgets & Gear3
Trade: Gadgets & Gear2
For Sale: Production Fixed Blades (Individual)2
Benchmade Knife Company1
Gadgets & Gear1
For Sale: Gadgets & Gear (Individual)1
H.I. Cantina1
Spyderco1
Knife Reviews & Testing1

 

[craytab]

Some wise words on the topic:

Please, if those really are your feelings on the subject post them yourself. Don't quote me from another thread. It is extremely tuff sometimes to tell if you are serious, sarcastic, mocking, condescending, or whatever.

 

[JR88FAN]

Please, if those really are your feelings on the subject post them yourself. Don't quote me from another thread. It is extremely tuff sometimes to tell if you are serious, sarcastic, mocking, condescending, or whatever.

Take it as a compliment.
This thread is a great example of everything that happens when you just buy a knife from a random guy on the internet
with a non-existent description, and about as bad a picture of a knife you can get.

 

[craytab]

I appreciate your input as it is a good reminder to us all.

First, to get this out of the way, that was not his "input". In fact he feels the opposite on this item description issue. He quoted what I said from another thread, I think to mock me.

For the record, I was not looking for a new knife. I was looking for a knife to use so my acceptance of wear was high already. A description of "LNIB" implies that it might have been carried a few times and boxed up afterwards for sale. It might have a few carry marks. It sure as heck does not mean taken apart with a wrench and destroyed. Whenever I buy something LNIB, I am ready for minor imperfections. Not what you see above.

I always ask for better pictures when the seller does not provide a description. But if the seller posts LNIB, it better be "like new in box." I have had over 80 perfect transactions here and this has not happened once.

I appreciate your input as it is a good reminder to us all.

Now onto the actual topic.

Thanks for coming forward and pointing this member out. It is shocking that he would relist the item without disclosing the condition issues that you caught. Perhaps this could be a time when the mods could get involved and let folks know about this thread and the much more accurate photos you took that display the true condition of the knife. I say this because unfortunately people don't research a seller before they buy as they should so prospective buyers will never see this thread.

It sounds like after the purchase you handled the situation quite well. It went about as smoothly as possible. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I would like to point out some initial red flags that should turn prospective buyers off. 1) only one not very good photo. When I list I post many close up photos. If this is not the case it should be a warning sign. 2) In the photo you can see that the screw does not match the other two. 3) As pointed out by JR, the member is here mostly to buy and sell. He has no real commitment to this community. While not a complete turn off it should be a red flag and in combination with the other stuff it should make you pass on the knife.

As an example, one of my early purchases here was a PM2 of the same type (satin/camo). The guy said the blade had faint scratches. He took very good picture of it. So good it made them look way worse than what they were as when I got it in hand I could hardly see them. The thing is, I knew I was taking a risk. It was during a time when a PM2 was hard to come by and they went in minutes on the exchange. For me, the risk I took was worth it. This is a personal decision made by a buyer with the information from the seller (no matter how limited it might be). It is a choice the buyer makes.

If you buy anything off the exchange you are taking a risk. Despite the listed condition (NIB, LNIB, whatever) you are buying a used knife. To think otherwise would be foolish. If you expect perfect condition you need to buy new. All you can do on the exchange is mitigate risk. If the description is vague, pass on it or ask questions/get more pics. Pay with paypal the right way so you have recourse. Research the seller a bit. Takes only a few seconds to check their posting areas, search for them here in the GB&U, and take a look at a couple of their posts.

Should a seller list their knife with as much detail as possible? Of course. Will everyone list their knife with as much detail as possible? No. It is up to the buyer if you want to take the risk given the description.

Again, thanks to the OP for posting about this member. He will go on my don't do business with list and I would advise others to do the same. I will say that all of my interactions on the exchange have been positive. This one is by far the exception.

 

[retired01]

Hunger for power gives a taste of blood!nasty deal of the seller,steer away from these kind o' people,we don't need 'm!

 

[craytab]

Take it as a compliment.

This is usually an indication to me personally of someone I won't buy a knife from.
I am not here to beat on the guy, but when I see this (below) I walk away.
To a dedicated knife flipper, LNIB means just what you got, because I really doubt he even understands or cares about any of this....

For Sale: Production Folders (Individual)392
Trade: Knives & Tools154
General Knife Discussion24
For Sale: Custom Knives (Individual)8
Automatic Knife / Switchblades6
For Sale: Automatic Knives (Individual)6
Wanted to Buy: Knives4
Wanted to buy: Gadgets & Gear3
Trade: Gadgets & Gear2
For Sale: Production Fixed Blades (Individual)2
Benchmade Knife Company1
Gadgets & Gear1
For Sale: Gadgets & Gear (Individual)1
H.I. Cantina1
Spyderco1
Knife Reviews & Testing1

This is a valuble tool. It shows you where a person posts. If anyone doesn't know about it, go to someones profile page (click on their name and then view profile), the last tab is post areas. The overwhelming contribution the seller has here is to buying/salling/trading which really is not a contribution to the community at all.

Here is an example of mine:

Top Areas Of Posting
General Knife Discussion1,762
FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!454
SOG Specialty Knives238
For Sale: Production Folders (Individual)111
Spyderco84
For Sale: Production Fixed Blades (Individual)67
Whine & Cheese60
Benchmade Knife Company59
Knife Reviews & Testing55
Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment18
Tech Support, General Q&A, Site Feedback & More14
Pirate's Cove12
For Sale: Gadgets & Gear (Individual)11
Busse / Swamprat / Scrapyard Knives For Sale7
Gadgets & Gear6
Practical Tactical6
For Sale: Gadgets & Gear4
Community Center3
Knife Laws3
Bernard Levine's Knife Collecting & Identification3
KA-BAR Knives2
For Sale: Fixed Blades2
Cold Steel Knives2
Trade: Knives & Tools1
Custom & Handmade Knives1
Wanted to Buy: Knives1
Multi-tools & Multi-purpose Knives1
Kitchen Cutlery & Tools1
Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers1
Ontario Knife Company1
Emerson Knives1

 

[EyeDog]

A more correct listing would have been, "Used PM2--some user marks on blade and torque screws. Not perfect but lots of life left."

Priced accordingly it would sell. I've seen a lot worse go for more around here.

Thanks for the heads up on this members listing issues.

Mike

 

[craytab]

A more correct listing would have been, "Used PM2--some user marks on blade and torque screws. Not perfect but lots of life left."

Priced accordingly it would sell. I've seen a lot worse go for more around here.

Thanks for the heads up on this members listing issues.

Mike

With photos of said user marks.

 

[Gizler00]

I am glad this is here and glad I just passed on a deal with him. I almost bought the black praetorian G from him, but was advised to do otherwise.

I am also glad this is here because I was hesitant to post this.

I had some reservations about spending 488$ for a praetorian and started asking questions. My big concern was that the knife had been opened up. Which ultimately voids the warranty through Medford. So I proceed to ask him about it and he sort of played dumb.

I asked it the knife had ever been opened up, and he replied with well yes, look at the picture, it's opened up in them........

I made some calls, did some research, and in the end was ultimately advised to pass. Which now I am very glad I did.

There have been numerous times that I "almost" bought a knife from this seller.

This kind of info needs to be out there for potential buyers.

Like the sleazy used car sales man that tell you everything you want to hear. Then when you leave the lot, it blows up. Kind of reminds me of the Kurt Russell movie called "Used Cars" from 1980.

 

[Converge]

Definitely agree.... misleading descriptions are not cool!!

But, just to be safe, even if something is listed as "LNIB" or "Brand New" or "Good" or whatever.... try and get as many close up/detailed pictures as possible!!

I dont have any experience buying/selling on this forum, however I've been buying/selling computer/car/gun parts on many different forums for well over a decade! Always ask for pictures, I've been mislead numerous times regarding the conditions of products and it does indeed suck!

 

[JR88FAN]

I think the bottom line here is obvious.
Ask yourself 'how well do you know who you're buying from'

There are a handful of members here who I have come to know and trust, and I don't need to ask questions, their word is gold, however, everyone else is just a name on my screen.

I think that because we are all on the same forum some buyers get the idea that there is a safety net in that.
There isn't.

 

[Gizmoman]

As I always always say--DO your homework
Ask for additional pictures
If the ones posted are distant REQUIRE close ups.
If they wont..MOVE ALONG
Ask for references..

If a reputable member in our community has nothing too
hide..They will provide anything you request.
I applaud you for approaching MODERATORS
I also feel it was a prudent thing to do to bring this out in the open..?

Not fully describing..is simply wrong..Might have not been intentional??
I wont make that call.. But my gut tells me one thing..
Refund was justified for certain..
Just my 2 cents.

 

[JR88FAN]

As I always always say--DO your homework
Ask for additional pictures
If the ones posted are distant REQUIRE close ups.
If they wont..MOVE ALONG
Ask for references..
If a reputable member in our community has nothing too
hide..They will provide anything you request.
I applaud you for approaching MODERATORS
I also feel it was a prudent thing to do to bring this out in the open..?
BUT I also must ask.As I always suggest..
WAS the seller approached privately to resolve the issue of not fully addressing all issues.
I feel it was deception..Not fully describing..is simply wrong..Might have not been intentional??
I wont make that call.. But my gut tells me one thing..
I would approach him and require a refund..
Just my 2 cents.
Good luck with a resolution my friend..

Hey man, you need some better coffee!!!

Refund has already (sorta) been taken care of.
The knife has been re-listed, and the seller still states in his new add that it's golden?!?

Just bringing you up to speed bro.....

 

[NinjaRyder0920]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is always a risk buying on any forum, so everyone be sure to do your homework as Gizmoman talked about ^^

Personally, when I sell I tend to think that people will be most satisfied with as much info and/or as many photos as possible. People like to check out, handle and try on items in person before purchasing, and with online shopping that aspect is removed. Therefore, the best pictures and words which can be used to capture an image of the condition of the item at the time of the sale will most of the time end well with both parties satisfied.

At the minimum I try for 4-6 pictures - both sides of the blade close-up, both sides of the handle close-up, lock up (if applicable) and centering. That collection tends to answer the majority of questions I get from interested parties (centering, lock up, wear marks, scratches, ect) Extra photos are warranted if there are specific marks or blemishes, which I also reveal in the description of the item. It is tough when the seller just posts a single birds-eye photo of the entire lot that is for sale sitting on boxes as was done in the thread in discussion. In those cases, I ask for more photos and ask more questions for clarification of condition.

Just be diligent to a point and try not to assume.:thumbup:

 

[Vaporstang]

Thanks for the warning - This is the first person that I have added to my ignore list....