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Front Flipper Button Lock Design

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by CO_EDC, Aug 8, 2018.

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  1. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    Haha, I'm glad you like it!
     
  2. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    Quick mockup. What do you guys think? I was going to play with different ways to mount it to make it a little more unique and less Spyderco-y (which isn't a bad thing, I love their clips). But for now I just threw a rough one in there to see how it looked. If I can find titanium in the size I need I could still anodized it.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    I am liking this design I think the trimmed down handle with some of the spine showing would be my preference. I would say I am more partial to the 3D clip as I am just not a fan of the wire clips at least esthetically. My only concern at this point in the design is if that flipper tab is large enough to work with a strong enough detent to actually hold the blade closed.

    Side note I love the idea of trying to learn CAD/3D designing any free options out there worth using and looking at?
     
  4. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    So I moved the edge down closer to the bottom of the handle when it's open with the blade still completely hidden when closed. I'll post pictures later today/tonight. I won't know until I make the first prototype if the blade will be to close to the edge of the handle in the closed position.

    Yeah, the clip has always been a hard decision for me. I love the simplicity of a Spyderco style wire clip and that it's deep carry. But I like the looks of the 3D machined clip (and I thought it would be cool to hide the hardware on the inside of the handle. And I also had an idea of creating a deep carry clip that is ALSO the backspacer. So basically 1 machined piece for the backspacer and pocket clip. Decisions decisions....

    As for the flipper tab, that will also be something I wont know how it feels until I prototype it. I have a couple things I can tweak in the design of the lock to change the strength of the detent. I'm sure it will take a few iterations of build, redesign, build, redesign to dial it in. But that's part of the fun!

    FreeCAD is really good and there is a pretty big support community out there for it. As well as lots of instructional videos on youtube.
     
  5. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    You know that I love the wire clip but if the consensus is that most people do not like it I love the knife with pretty much any clip as long as it doesn’t look like this.

    [​IMG]

    Oh one more suggestion before I forget. NO T6 or smaller screws please! T8 minimum! The reason being t6 screws seem to be very prone to having the driver recesesses strip out.
     
  6. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    Haha, I don't know.... I'm pretty tempted by that clip.... ;)

    So as much as I LOVE the wire clips, I'm not sure if it fits in with the look of the knife. I'll have to give it some time. Honestly, I'm not in love with the machine clip I have either. I think it needs more rounded lines to match the handle better. I haven't spent too much time on the pocket clip yet, I'm hoping to design something I like better this weekend.

    And I'm with you on the hardware. T6 is a pain
     
  7. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    I am ok with T6 but definitely nothing smaller than that but I am ok with larger as long as it doesn't look out of place. I understand on the flipper tab it will have to be prototyped just thinking from some experience where I found I needed a weaker detent to easily flip with the tab in a single motion but that weaker detent also meant you could fling the knife open, ie not NY friendly, so just a concern to put in your mind for testing and redesign phases.
     
  8. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    I like the idea of a spine mounted clip sort of like seen on the crkt swindle. The only issue is where most right handed people clip their knives in their pocket (on a pair of jeans they normally clip a tip up knife so the blade is against the seam closer to their hip, opposite the seam closer to the zipper) a spine mounted clip will make the knife sit backwards to what they typically prefer. Usually people like the blade to sit against the seam as a saftey feature.

    [​IMG]

    There are also “in line” clips mounted on the other side like the Graham Razel folders.

    [​IMG]

    In this pic below you can see how he mounted it. I don’t know how he keeps it secure.

    I say just go with the machine clip. We can love the wire clip in private lol! Wire clip is polarizing!
    [​IMG]

    Please watch this video to see how the maker used a backspacer to fit a large blade in the handle while making it impossible to touch the blade.

    Skip to 20 mins in to see backspacer feature.



    A backspacer might help you prevent the blade from being able to be touched.

    Edit to add: Sorry for hogging the thread abit, I am just super excited! All of my ideas are only for consideration and even if the knife came out as it did on the very first picture of this thread posted I would be all over it in a heard beat.

    What I wanted to ask was is this going to be on bearings? My dream would be a well made phosphor bronze washer pivot which can be an outstanding smooth system. Bearings would be fine too, just make them caged bearings please! No loose bearings like IKBS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  9. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    Those clips are getting a little crazy for me haha. I've never tried the swindle or the Razel in pocket, but I know some people are into those clips. I think I'm going to stick with a 3d machined clip. I have an idea on how I want to clean it up to better match the simple lines of the knife. I'll post pictures later.

    As far as bearings vs washers... it wont be loose bearings either way! I was originally going to go with caged bearings, but I'm not sure it's needed with this lock type. I'll have to look closer at those other button lock knives SpySmasher mentioned and see if they are using bearings. It might be plenty smooth on just washers. There's so many "titanium flippers on bearings" that I was planning on just doing them from the start.
     
  10. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    I am no knife manufacturer but I imagine it is harder to get a perfect action on washers than it is bearings.
     
  11. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I like this clip design a lot more. Super simple, has the same design cues as the knife. Still a couple things to tweak but I think this is the idea.
     
    SpySmasher and Lapedog like this.
  12. SpySmasher

    SpySmasher Lead Guitar Platinum Member

    Sep 1, 2016
    Me too.

    You probably know but clips are really tricky. The mechanics are tough to get right. I've been following a "saga" (;)) of clip design on Liong Mah's instagram. Apparently, the clip that was originally released for his Lanny" model met with a lot of complaints so he and Reate redesigned it. He posted a picture of the old and new clips side by side. The differences are pretty subtle but it shows that a little goes a long way with clips:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    Oh another annoying question. Do you know how the stop pin will work? Internal stop pin? Regular stop pin?

    If it’s internal is it possible to either do it so the pin is stuck in the blade and the half moon tracks are cut into the inside wall of each scale; rather than the pin being stationary and the half moon track being cut into the blade tang?

    I have seen many designs where cutting the track in the blade tang results in questionable weak points in the blade.

    [​IMG]

    Or if you are going to have a stationary stop pin please do something like this.

    (I can’t get the pic to copy. Look at post #57 in this thread plz.)

    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...pyderco-southard.1595285/page-3#post-18222558
     
  14. PirateSeulb

    PirateSeulb Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 6, 2017
    I kinda like the idea of the pin in the blade and the track in the handle has anyone done that before? I know I have seen a stop pin/thumb stud but I have always got the impression that it wasn't a stand alone stop pin.
     
  15. SpySmasher

    SpySmasher Lead Guitar Platinum Member

    Sep 1, 2016
    It's been done. Don't ask me where because my memory is crap but I was just reading about it recently.
     
  16. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    Right now I'm using a traditional stop pin that stops the blade in the open and closed positions. But I have an idea that I'm trying where I won't need a stop pin.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    I like that standard stop pin design the best actually as you show above.

    I highly recommend you go with the stop pin. From what I have seen knives that try to use no stop pin may work at first but quickly develop blade play. I assume you are planning on having the button lock itself sort of be a psudo stop pin.

    This is because a stable lock blwith a stop pin forms a triangle with its three points of contact. A triangle is a very strong shape.

    The triangle is the lock, the stop pin and the pivot.
     
  18. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    My Kizer Feist has a pin that goes through the blade into two half moon tracks on the inner side of either scale. In the feist version the stop pin is actually free floating in the hole in the blade under the designer’s (Lundquist’s) request. I believe this is so the pin can roll as in moves through the track. However the free floating pin can be heard rattling if you shake he knife while the blade is between the closed and locked open position.

    My Jason Burke Rockstar has a stop pin that is press fit into the blade and only sticks out of one side of the tang. It has a half moon track on the inside of only one scale. This one is press fit in and not free floating like on the feist. On the opposite side of the tang that the stop pin sticks out the tang is simply flat.
     
  19. CO_EDC

    CO_EDC

    65
    Oct 9, 2012
    A "triangle" is a good description. I think your right that over time it could develope blade play without a stop pin. The biggest unknown for me (having never designed a knife before) is ensuring the lockup stays strong over time. Most locks (liner, frame, axis) have an angle somewhere on the lock face so the lock is forcing the blade into the stop pin. All of the button locks I've seen just drive a plunger (the button) into basically a cup on the blade. So there's not really anything forcing the blade into the stop pin .
     
  20. Lapedog

    Lapedog Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 7, 2016
    The plunger is usually actually slightly shaped like a truncated cone so that way there is something producing tightness as the plunger wears in.

    The part of the button lock that goes into the slot is slightly shaped like a truncated clone and so is the hole or partial hole it goes into.

    I recommend you try talking to Hogue Knives who are masters of the button lock. They may be able to help you figure out how they do it.
     

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