Full tang design on smaller knives

[ace]

Do any of the local knife history buffs know who in the modern times reintroduced full tang design to knives and especially to small knives and what is a good reason for it? I know that in the past this was done because steel was generally crap. I think I first saw it in Bob Loveless knives, but his tangs were tapered, which is OK. The reason I ask besides curiosity is that it is very popular these days and many request full tang design in their small fixed blades. Many of these full tangs are the full thickness of the stock before the grinding on the blade was done. This makes the knives very handle heavy and wastes lots of steel. I can understand this design in large bladed knives to offset some of the blade weight and bring balance closer to the handle. I also understand that tapering the tang is more work. Is durability really an issue, do people break handles on their small knives and require full tang construction? In my experience knives usually break closer to the tip or on blade/handle junction, but I have never seen a knife break in the middle of the handle. Puukkos seem fine with their rat tail construction. So the questions are who popularized this design in small fixed blades and what is the purpose of it, specifically in knives with blade under 8" or so?

 

[sgt1372]

Not an expert but full tang knives should be stronger. I prefer full tangs and heavier fixed blade knives, so it's all good to me.

The ZT 0121 is an example of a small and heavy full tang fixed blade knife that like very much but also have a lighter Cohutta pukko built like that too. No criticisms from me about either one.

Also recently bought a similarly Lionsteel M4 w/M390 steel. Haven't noticed any balance problems w/it or the others either

 

[ace]

Not an expert but full tang knives should be stronger. I prefer full tangs and heavier fixed blade knives, so it's all good to me.

They are stronger in the handle area, no question about that, but why do they need to be that strong in that area? What activity would break a knife in the handle area that would require full tang design and especially full tang full stock thickness. If you prefer knives that are extremely handle heavy then I understand. I would think that more neutral balance is preferred in small knives, but this is personal.

 

[AntDog]

Lots of knives like this are drilled out under the scales to keep the strength of the full tang and have good balance.

 

[ace]

Lots of knives like this are drilled out under the scales to keep the strength of the full tang and have good balance.

That's true, that would work too. Some, many are not though. How much strength is needed in the handle, to me once the handle is as strong as the blade, no more strength is needed. You also get the benefit of the handle material to add to that strength, most materials used for handles are very hard to break. Where's the need for extreme strength in the handle portion of the blade come from? Are there realistic use cases for a small knife that would break a well designed non full tang handle and not break the blade?

 

[herisson]

The main reason, IMO, is ease of manufacturing. Wasting steel is not a big deal nowadays (it was in the old days...). Those who do the tapered tang thing have all my respect. It combines the best of both worlds. As long as the balance is right, I'm happy.

 

[AntDog]

That's true, that would work too. Some, many are not though. How much strength is needed in the handle, to me once the handle is as strong as the blade, no more strength is needed. You also get the benefit of the handle material to add to that strength, most materials used for handles are very hard to break. Where's the need for extreme strength in the handle portion of the blade come from? Are there realistic use cases for a small knife that would break a well designed non full tang handle and not break the blade?

Sounds like you’re asking for somebody to share something stupid they did with a knife that resulted in the handle breaking... or broke a stick tang and not a full tang?

It happens. I’ve seen broken examples of full tangs, stick tangs, hidden tangs, partial tangs, etc.

If the knife is used for its intended purpose, the handle should be fine. If you don’t like full tang knives, there are plenty of alternatives.

 

[Black Oak Bladeworks]

The main reason, IMO, is ease of manufacturing. Wasting steel is not a big deal nowadays (it was in the old days...). Those who do the tapered tang thing have all my respect. It combines the best of both worlds. As long as the balance is right, I'm happy.

I agree with this. I skeletonize my small knives to reduce weight. It is usually easier to make full tang knife and drill a bunch of holes or mill it out than try and fit it into a handle. (In my opinion) It adds to the strength as well, not that you really need it though unless you are really miss using it. Tapered Tang is more work than full tang usually. I am not sure who popularized the idea though I would be interested to know.

I would also say for many knives over 4 inch blade length, having metal in the handle helps to balance it out to. It just depends on the design of the knife in question.

 

[BP_]

I can’t think of any small knives I’ve owned that weren’t drilled out, skeletonized, or milled. If you can add strength and not sacrifice an unbalanced amount of weight, why not? At least that’s how I see it.

 

[HSC ///]

Historically idk, but in speaking to Tim Wright who has been making knives for 44 years, his first knife was full tang.
Why does he do full tang knives? Because he can taper the tangs and it improves the visual flow of his work. Flow is one of the 3 fundamental principles of his work
He also does partial tang knives. Strength isn't really the issue for his designs or work, although it is certainly there with a full tang.

Loveless was likely the one who brought full tapered tangs into our modern view. I recall reading he wanted to make sure his knives didn't fail in field use. IMO this was probably a "marketing" move.

 

[22-rimfire]

I guess, my question relative to this discussion is how small is "small"? The tangs on small knives are sometimes cut down a bit to allow for a smaller handle because the knife is not designed to beat on it with a sledge hammer. Tapered tangs are often used where the handle encloses the entire tang. Good examples are Randall's. I suspect partial tangs are often smaller to cut manufacturing costs and added strength is felt to be un-needed. An example might be the Spyderco Moran or most Mora's. I think the Moran is primarily a hunting knife; light and nimble for hunting chores.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I don't believe " full tang " knives really ever disappeared, I know of full tang hunters from the 20's-70's.
Queen , Case, Schrade, Imperial, Colonial, various German firms. They all offered hunting knives with " full " tangs throughout the 20th century.

I would say that the purpose is just the ability for a different kind of handle shape and material.

 

[ace]

Manufacturing ease makes sense to me. Also, tapering the tang, skeletonizing or drilling out. My concern is balance, as long as balance is preserved I am ok with any design. I've just seen many complaints on Instagram and other places whenever a maker brings out a small knife that is not full tang. Small being 4-5" blades, fields knives, hunting, etc. There is always someone that asks why is it not full tang, so the reason for my question, why should it be full tang. Flow, manufacturing all good explanations and make sense. I guess just looking at the knife on a picture you can't tell if the tang was drilled out or skeletonized. The most common explanation I've seen is strength and I don't have a good enough imagination to figure out how one would break a handle with a tapered full width tang for example without breaking something else first. For example does anyone know if the tang of Spyderco Province is drilled out or lightened in any other way?

 

[herisson]

You won't either break a handle with a stick tang. This billhook is constructed with a stick tang and leather stacked handle. It went trough the most brutish uses (splitting wood, prying apart pallets, pulling nails, you name it) and is still alive and kicking.

I'll add that many brush clearing tools are built with stick tang handles. Plenty tough.

The fact is the most stressed part of a knife is the transition from blade to handle. Whatever the tang, if this area has a weakness (square transitions, holes for pinning the bolsters,...), that's were it could break. In other words, a stick tang with radiused or tapered transitions will be tougher than a full tang with two holes for pinning the bolsters (right were the most stress occurs).
For an impact tool, it's nice to have more weight forward. Stick tang wins.
For a knife, what I appreciate most is the right balance : if the point of balance is at the index finger, it's perfect to me. If this is achieved with a full, skeletonized, tapered or milled tang is not very important.
Stick tang, perfect balance (the added bonus is the light weight for such a sturdy blade : 1/7" at the spine) :

Full integral : blade, bolster, tang and pommel are one piece drop forged. Balance is perfect. The knife is heavy but still very pleasant to use :

 

[comis]

That's true, that would work too. Some, many are not though. How much strength is needed in the handle, to me once the handle is as strong as the blade, no more strength is needed. You also get the benefit of the handle material to add to that strength, most materials used for handles are very hard to break. Where's the need for extreme strength in the handle portion of the blade come from? Are there realistic use cases for a small knife that would break a well designed non full tang handle and not break the blade?

Persoanlly, I think anything under 3" or a neck knife could definitely do away with a partial tang or drilled/milled out for weight reduction, instead of going full stock full tang.

 

[Horsewright]

I don't think full tangs ever went away? Or were reintroduced. Green River knives have been around here in the US since what... the 1820s-30s I believe. I remember reading somewhere that by the time of the Civil War they had already shipped 700,000 knives. the vast majority of their knives are full tang. Still in business and still making knives. I make a few knives too now and then:

Then I make a few more:

Then more, its a viscous cycle but a good problem to have:

Point is, I've made and sold A LOT of knives to a lot of folks and many of these folks use and abuse them on a daily basis. Working cowboys and ranchers are my main market and these guys can be tough on things. Ask Spudnik, the little guy with a lot of try, see working for a living:

I've repaired a few broken tips (ya know that prying screwdriver thing), a few cracked handles, one damascus blade with a bad weld, one cracked blade, (probably an oops on my grinding there maybe) but I have never had anyone break the tang under the handle, not a one.

Then ya go to a show:

Get ya some help to run the booth:

Sell your knives:

And start over.

 

[jfk1110]

I don't think full tangs ever went away? Or were reintroduced. Green River knives have been around here in the US since what... the 1820s-30s I believe. I remember reading somewhere that by the time of the Civil War they had already shipped 700,000 knives. the vast majority of their knives are full tang. Still in business and still making knives. I make a few knives too now and then:

Then I make a few more:

Then more, its a viscous cycle but a good problem to have:

Point is, I've made and sold A LOT of knives to a lot of folks and many of these folks use and abuse them on a daily basis. Working cowboys and ranchers are my main market and these guys can be tough on things. Ask Spudnik, the little guy with a lot of try, see working for a living:

I've repaired a few broken tips (ya know that prying screwdriver thing), a few cracked handles, one damascus blade with a bad weld, one cracked blade, (probably an oops on my grinding there maybe) but I have never had anyone break the tang under the handle, not a one.

Then ya go to a show:

Get ya some help to run the booth:

Sell your knives:

And start over.

I'm a big fan of your work and especially the sheaths!! Have you, will you or can you do say a 4" blade in Damasteel? ?? Wrapped in green canvas micarta of course!! I'd be hard pressed not to jump on one of those!

 

[AntDog]

Manufacturing ease makes sense to me. Also, tapering the tang, skeletonizing or drilling out. My concern is balance, as long as balance is preserved I am ok with any design. I've just seen many complaints on Instagram and other places whenever a maker brings out a small knife that is not full tang. Small being 4-5" blades, fields knives, hunting, etc. There is always someone that asks why is it not full tang, so the reason for my question, why should it be full tang. Flow, manufacturing all good explanations and make sense. I guess just looking at the knife on a picture you can't tell if the tang was drilled out or skeletonized. The most common explanation I've seen is strength and I don't have a good enough imagination to figure out how one would break a handle with a tapered full width tang for example without breaking something else first. For example does anyone know if the tang of Spyderco Province is drilled out or lightened in any other way?

Seems like you answered your own question. You said people complain when they see a knife released that is not full tang, saying they would like it made with a full tang.

So why should it be full tang? Because they want it that way, for whatever reason. That said, it’s up to the maker what they produce, so it’s a moot point.

Some knives are full tang, some aren’t. Buy what you like. What’s the problem? Not enough stick tangs out there for you? They’re out there, just do a little looking.

 

[ace]

You won't either break a handle with a stick tang. This billhook is constructed with a stick tang and leather stacked handle. It went trough the most brutish uses (splitting wood, prying apart pallets, pulling nails, you name it) and is still alive and kicking.

I'll add that many brush clearing tools are built with stick tang handles. Plenty tough.

The fact is the most stressed part of a knife is the transition from blade to handle. Whatever the tang, if this area has a weakness (square transitions, holes for pinning the bolsters,...), that's were it could break. In other words, a stick tang with radiused or tapered transitions will be tougher than a full tang with two holes for pinning the bolsters (right were the most stress occurs).
For an impact tool, it's nice to have more weight forward. Stick tang wins.
For a knife, what I appreciate most is the right balance : if the point of balance is at the index finger, it's perfect to me. If this is achieved with a full, skeletonized, tapered or milled tang is not very important.
Stick tang, perfect balance (the added bonus is the light weight for such a sturdy blade : 1/7" at the spine) :

Full integral : blade, bolster, tang and pommel are one piece drop forged. Balance is perfect. The knife is heavy but still very pleasant to use :

This reflects my thinking perfectly, absolutely agree. Tips and handle blade junction are the weakest parts of a fixed knife usually and balance is very important in a working blade.

Seems like you answered your own question. You said people complain when they see a knife released that is not full tang, saying they would like it made with a full tang.

So why should it be full tang? Because they want it that way, for whatever reason. That said, it’s up to the maker what they produce, so it’s a moot point.

Some knives are full tang, some aren’t. Buy what you like. What’s the problem? Not enough stick tangs out there for you? They’re out there, just do a little looking.

You know, thanks for pointing out that water is wet, I appreciate it. This is a discussion forum, I had a question I asked it because I wanted to see if my thinking is faulty in some way. People responded in a useful way pointing out that some of their experiences and thinking were similar to mine and also reaffirming some of my suspicions or pointing out something I didn't think about. If you have nothing useful to add, move alone. You don't have to reply or weight in on every thread. Clearly all of this is obvious to you and you don't understand why I asked the question and that's fine. I see the request for full tang construction all over the place and I feel that makers are making these because customers are asking for them not because this is the best design. I wanted to see if there are good reasons for such design and it seems there are from the ease of manufacturing stand point.

 

[Horsewright]

I'm a big fan of your work and especially the sheaths!! Have you, will you or can you do say a 4" blade in Damasteel? ?? Wrapped in green canvas micarta of course!! I'd be hard pressed not to jump on one of those!

Thanks! Ya bet.