Full tang design on smaller knives

[herisson]

I see the request for full tang construction all over the place and I feel that makers are making these because customers are asking for them not because this is the best design. I wanted to see if there are good reasons for such design and it seems there are from the ease of manufacturing stand point.

Well, it is the "best design" from some point of views : ease of manufacturing, sure, but also, yes, balance : a 4 / 5" blade might be well balanced with a full tang (why do a stick tang then add a heavy pommel to achieve this balance I'm fond of ?), and last but not least, customer demand : if the customer believes his knife will be stronger with a full tang, by all means give him a full tang. Everybody happy !
I do appreciate the added craftmanship and work that goes into a well done stick tang build. The stick tang is also appreciated by people using their knives outdoors in cold climates : the cold steel is unpleasant, or even painful, in the naked hand. Most traditional scandinavian, finnish or russian knives are stick tangs.
This said, I wouldn't dismiss a full tang knife as only a "fad". If a knife is well done, well balanced (my pet peeve), you should be happy with it.

 

[Dr Heelhook]

On the topic of wasting steel, the thing is if you make knives through stock removal (which I believe many do nowadays) and you're cutting out the profile from bars of cold rolled steel, there's not so much reason to cut off more steel than needed, just to get a narrower tang. If you forge the blade, you can just draw the steel out for a narrow tang, using less steel, but with stock removal, you will just end up cutting off bigger pieces of steel from the tang. I think that's why many people prefer to leave more steel for a bigger tang. Full tangs seem to be pretty popular too, partially because people like to be able to see that the tang goes all the way through.

 

[AntDog]

This reflects my thinking perfectly, absolutely agree. Tips and handle blade junction are the weakest parts of a fixed knife usually and balance is very important in a working blade.

You know, thanks for pointing out that water is wet, I appreciate it. This is a discussion forum, I had a question I asked it because I wanted to see if my thinking is faulty in some way. People responded in a useful way pointing out that some of their experiences and thinking were similar to mine and also reaffirming some of my suspicions or pointing out something I didn't think about. If you have nothing useful to add, move alone. You don't have to reply or weight in on every thread. Clearly all of this is obvious to you and you don't understand why I asked the question and that's fine. I see the request for full tang construction all over the place and I feel that makers are making these because customers are asking for them not because this is the best design. I wanted to see if there are good reasons for such design and it seems there are from the ease of manufacturing stand point.

...and the balance standpoint, and the design standpoint, and the consumer demand standpoint, etc.

No need to get bent out of shape, Hoss.

 

[ace]

Well, it is the "best design" from some point of views : ease of manufacturing, sure, but also, yes, balance : a 4 / 5" blade might be well balanced with a full tang (why do a stick tang then add a heavy pommel to achieve this balance I'm fond of ?), and last but not least, customer demand : if the customer believes his knife will be stronger with a full tang, by all means give him a full tang. Everybody happy !
I do appreciate the added craftmanship and work that goes into a well done stick tang build. The stick tang is also appreciated by people using their knives outdoors in cold climates : the cold steel is unpleasant, or even painful, in the naked hand. Most traditional scandinavian, finnish or russian knives are stick tangs.
This said, I wouldn't dismiss a full tang knife as only a "fad". If a knife is well done, well balanced (my pet peeve), you should be happy with it.

In some situations it can be "best design", balance is a pet peeve of mine as well and I see it being ignored often. It would be difficult to balance a small bladed knife if you just used full tang the same shape as the handle and the same thickness as the stock you started from, unless you tapered it, or milled, drilled or lightened it in some other ways. I guess since it is not obvious what is going on under the scales, it helps to ask the maker where the balance is regardless of construction. Exposed tang can also be a problem in hot climates if non-stainless steel is used because the sweat will corrode the exposed tang unless taken care of often. By all means give the customers what they ask for, but it is painful to see a knife suffer in being a good knife because all the customer cares about is maximum strength. To each his own ofcourse.

 

[TheEdge01]

Under extreme, possibly even abusive circumstances, a well made full tang is stronger than a well made hidden tang. That’s not to say the hidden tang design is weak. If everything is properly fitted together and a nice strong handle material is selected (desert iron wood) hidden tang vs full tang is a moot point.

 

[ace]

Under extreme, possibly even abusive circumstances, a well made full tang is stronger than a well made hidden tang. That’s not to say the hidden tang design is weak. If everything is properly fitted together and a nice strong handle material is selected (desert iron wood) hidden tang vs full tang is a moot point.

In absolute terms more steel is stronger than less steel all else being equal, I am not disputing this. I can't think of a scenario in which a well designed partial tang of any sort would break under the handle while the rest of the knife stays intact. Knives usually break in the handle blade transition or somewhere in the blade area, tip, edge, etc The only way I can see a handle being destroyed is if you took a half tang for example and started pounding on the pommel area with a hammer, using knife as a chisel. In this scenario full tang would be preferred, not because tang of half tang would suffer but because the handle would be destroyed, making the knife less usable after. This is ofcourse abuse, but happens I am sure, the blade in this scenario would probably suffer too.

 

[herisson]

The only way I can see a handle being destroyed is if you took a half tang for example and started pounding on the pommel area with a hammer, using knife as a chisel. In this scenario full tang would be preferred.

In this scenario, any knife would suffer, regardless of its build. Hammering on a knife as on a chisel is very similar to using the tip of a knife for extracting a slot screw. It isn't sensible and there will be damage.

 

[22-rimfire]

Happy Happy is what's needed from a customer point of view regardless of the tang. I haven't broken one yet, but in general I treat knives as knives and not prybars or a wedge. If somebody wants a full tang, so be it. But to say one type of tang is better regardless of use is stupid.

 

[jlauffer]

Was going to say I wasn't sure what would be a better design, but herisson makes some good points regarding cold climate, etc. But I guess I would counter that in cold climates you could simply wear gloves, although that may not always work, as some tasks may require more "feel". My first thought when I saw the question was that full tang would be easier to make, but not just because it's easier to slap scales on the sides...I was thinking more in terms of having something more substantial to hold onto while working on it (grinding, etc).

 

[herisson]

It seems quite reasonable to think that, rather naturally, full tang suits better the stock removal process (need some surface to grip that blank), while a forged knife coud be easily built with a drawn out stick tang. The fact is both builds have existed side by side for a very long time (understand Middle Ages). My understanding is that the stick tang builds (swords) were reserved for more high end weapons (swords...) because less weight, more speed... The more pedestrian blades (for the foot soldiers) could be churned out quicker just hammering out a one piece blank and then adding scales (falchions...).

 

[jlauffer]

The OP mentions balance as a major concern. Obviously on swords and large knives the balance is very important, but I would think on small knives the overall weight would be a more important factor than the balance point, but YMMV.

 

[Natlek]

In some situations it can be "best design", balance is a pet peeve of mine as well and I see it being ignored often. It would be difficult to balance a small bladed knife if you just used full tang the same shape as the handle and the same thickness as the stock you started from, unless you tapered it, or milled, drilled or lightened it in some other ways. I guess since it is not obvious what is going on under the scales, it helps to ask the maker where the balance is regardless of construction. Exposed tang can also be a problem in hot climates if non-stainless steel is used because the sweat will corrode the exposed tang unless taken care of often. By all means give the customers what they ask for, but it is painful to see a knife suffer in being a good knife because all the customer cares about is maximum strength. To each his own ofcourse.

Well depends how you tapered it ....This way can be removed the highest weights from tang .I start with 290 grams blank /5mm thick/and end up with 125 grams..........

Spine side picture

edge side picture

plungeless ...........

Complete weight 175 grams ............with excellent balance

About topic................to finish knife with full tang it takes three times less time than to finish knife with hidden tang......

 

[dirc]

Natlek, that bottom pic seems to not have the back end of the tang tapered (but I still really like what you did).

A perfectly balanced tang taper is what makes a fixed blade a real piece of art imho, add to that no square cuts at the ricasso and it's a perfect simple design

I am a suker for such designs, it just is hard to find ANY production fixed blades that do such finery

 

[ace]

I think I am not explaining myself well and not being clear of what I was asking, I apologize for that. I was specifically referring to full tang construction without lightening cuts, holes, milling, etc. It was explained that you can do all these things to deal with the misbalance that full thickness tang would cause. I knew this was done by some, but didn’t realize it was a very common practice. Excellent and valid point, if this is done then full tang is fine outside of climate issues which are real, if someone doesn’t believe it put your full tang knife in a freezer for some time and hold it after. Gloves can’t always be used as you loose a lot of precision when using gloves. Ease of manufacturing seems to be the overriding reason for constructing full tang knives, which is fine, but is not the reason that is given most of the time. The reason given most of the time is that full tang is stronger. This is true in absolute terms and is not open for discussion. My questions were, who in modern times popularized this construction. Seems like no one, it was here all along. The other question was, “is strength the real reason for such construction”, because I can’t imagine how it would be in a small knife. It seems that strength is not the reason, since other well constructed tangs are strong enough. Most swords don’t have full tang construction, most kukris don’t, brush clearing tools, etc

I think that balance is important in any working knife regardless of the size, excluding outliers such as very small knives. Balance is more important in larger, heavier knives ofcourse, but even in smaller knives it is important, it is just easier to muscle through and adjust with smaller knives, but you still loose precision and finesse

You also don’t really need full tang to hold on to during manufacture, you can put a temporary handle on while grinding the blade, it is done all the time. One example, Japanese knife making, but I am sure everyone does it.

 

[AntDog]

I think I am not explaining myself well and not being clear of what I was asking, I apologize for that. I was specifically referring to full tang construction without lightening cuts, holes, milling, etc. It was explained that you can do all these things to deal with the misbalance that full thickness tang would cause. I knew this was done by some, but didn’t realize it was a very common practice. Excellent and valid point, if this is done then full tang is fine outside of climate issues which are real, if someone doesn’t believe it put your full tang knife in a freezer for some time and hold it after. Gloves can’t always be used as you loose a lot of precision when using gloves. Ease of manufacturing seems to be the overriding reason for constructing full tang knives, which is fine, but is not the reason that is given most of the time. The reason given most of the time is that full tang is stronger. This is true in absolute terms and is not open for discussion. My questions were, who in modern times popularized this construction. Seems like no one, it was here all along. The other question was, “is strength the real reason for such construction”, because I can’t imagine how it would be in a small knife. It seems that strength is not the reason, since other well constructed tangs are strong enough. Most swords don’t have full tang construction, most kukris don’t, brush clearing tools, etc

I think that balance is important in any working knife regardless of the size, excluding outliers such as very small knives. Balance is more important in larger, heavier knives ofcourse, but even in smaller knives it is important, it is just easier to muscle through and adjust with smaller knives, but you still loose precision and finesse

You also don’t really need full tang to hold on to during manufacture, you can put a temporary handle on while grinding the blade, it is done all the time. One example, Japanese knife making, but I am sure everyone does it.

So.......

What exactly are you asking now? You are continuing to “not explain yourself well, and not be clear on what you are asking”.

You gave me sh!t earlier after I gave pertinent info (that almost ALL full tang knives are drilled out under the scales to preserve balance), so what exactly are you asking now?

 

[ace]

So.......

What exactly are you asking now? You are continuing to “not explain yourself well, and not be clear on what you are asking”.

You gave me sh!t earlier after I gave pertinent info (that almost ALL full tang knives are drilled out under the scales to preserve balance), so what exactly are you asking now?

I am not asking anything anymore, I got my answers. This is what I said when you made your first post “That's true, that would work too.”. I still wanted to know reasons for making them, not all them are drilled, and who introduced them. Your later comments were just arrogant, know it all comments that didn’t add any value, so I asked you to ignore my questions since you clearly didn’t think they were worth discussing.

 

[AntDog]

I am not asking anything anymore, I got my answers. This is what I said when you made your first post “That's true, that would work too.”. I still wanted to know reasons for making them, not all them are drilled, and who introduced them. Your later comments were just arrogant, know it all comments that didn’t add any value, so I asked you to ignore my questions since you clearly didn’t think they were worth discussing.

No. I didn’t understand exactly what you were asking, and said as much. And I still don’t.

Anyhow, glad you got your answers, so I’ll see ya ‘round.

 

[Natlek]

Natlek, that bottom pic seems to not have the back end of the tang tapered (but I still really like what you did).

A perfectly balanced tang taper is what makes a fixed blade a real piece of art imho, add to that no square cuts at the ricasso and it's a perfect simple design

I am a suker for such designs, it just is hard to find ANY production fixed blades that do such finery

That knife have taper from tip to butt .Both side are grind in same angle from tip to butt....