Recommendation? Full Tang Hatchets/Axes

Hickory n steel Hickory n steel this point is mine and only mine, I don't know anybody here who owns those fulltang tools. Neither I have talk about them with local people, all my conversations about them have been made by internet. Nevetheless the opinion of any society is as valuable as any other's one and contrasting both opinions and experiences is allways positive. You will allways learn something if your posture is honests and your mind is not closed.

I'm not talking about completely different tools here, I'm talking about different types of billhooks. It's the same as talking about pruning axes and firefighting axes, they are not the same tool but both are axes.

My main point is clear "fulltang hatches/axes" are closer to billhooks than to axes so I consider them billhooks.

I also have talk about another point, "fulltang hatches/axes" are worse than both, axes and billhooks. You can think they are axes or you can think they are billhooks, anyways they are inferior to both tools. The only better point in their favour could be the price, but they tend to cost same or more to equal quality steel and heat treatment axes and billhooks, some of them cost much more.
 
Ugaldie said:
Hickory n steel Hickory n steel this point is mine and only mine, I don't know anybody here who owns those fulltang tools. Neither I have talk about them with local people, all my conversations about them have been made by internet. Nevetheless the opinion of any society is as valuable as any other's one and contrasting both opinions and experiences is allways positive. You will allways learn something if your posture is honests and your mind is not closed.

I'm not talking about completely different tools here, I'm talking about different types of billhooks. It's the same as talking about pruning axes and firefighting axes, they are not the same tool but both are axes.

My main point is clear "fulltang hatches/axes" are closer to billhooks than to axes so I consider them billhooks.

I also have talk about another point, "fulltang hatches/axes" are worse than both, axes and billhooks. You can think they are axes or you can think they are billhooks, anyways they are inferior to both tools. The only better point in their favour could be the price, but they tend to cost same or more to equal quality steel and heat treatment axes and billhooks, some of them cost much more.
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Ok, now I understand that you were saying that you consider them to be closer to a bill hook than an axe. You're making a connection between 2 dots that are pretty far apart though.
I'll give a pass for those which are made of flat stock ( I call them axe shaped knives which is a much more accurate description , especially since they're made using knife materials and production methods ) but even these are only similar to the ones with that hatchet type part on the back.
Now those such as estwings..ect are drop forged and have some actual dimension as well as a head profile which really puts them right into axe territory.

BTW while I do completely agree with you that " hatchets " of an all steel construction are not as good as those constructed traditionally, neither are a bill hook for hatchet tasks which they're not meant for so I still think you brought up a tool that's completely unrelated.
This thread which was started by someone who was not looking for suggestions for a tool but rather looking for a source to a tool he had already decided on really isn't the place for you to voice your distaste for such a tool.
You should start a new thread if this is such a concern of yours because you've thoroughly derailed this one.


Now I just want to apologize to the op for contributing to the derailment of his thread.
 
jblyttle said:
I want to stay out of this crazy trainwreck as much as possible, but for those who are scratching their head as much as I am, this is a Bridgeport hatchet.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bri...-aPUAhXJ5iYKHdTaCwIQ_AUICygC&biw=1680&bih=917

I learn new things all the time, but it still looks like a hatchet to my eyes.
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I believe those were recommended in an old scouting book on axemanship for the inexperienced scout for obvious handle toughness reasons. If I recall the book also pointed out the flaws or undesirable traits they had as well.
 
I don't think those 2 dots are far Hickory n steel Hickory n steel , from homesteading prespective the tool for the woods is the axe and the tool for the bushes is the billhook. Bushes and woods are commonly related and in some wood management like coppicing both tools are (or at least were) used.

I haven't said "BTW while I do completely agree with you that "hatchets" of an all steel construction are not as good as those constructed traditionally, neither are a bill hook for hatchet tasks". What I say is "axe shaped knives" perform in the same way as some billhooks as I have shown.

Good point calling those flat stocks "axe shaped knives". But taking in account the weight distribution, proportions and intended use of "fulltang hatches/axes" the billhook is the closest tool. Add to it billhooks are also "made using knife materials and production methods" and the huge variety of billhoks were you can find very close examples, and you have some solid arguments to clasify that tool as a billhook.

As I have said I consider Estwing axe designs as (being generous) mediocre axes, the same about Bridgeports.

Who has started this thread was asking for advice, he has asked for both real axes and "fulltang hatches/axes". What he can learn from our disscusion is axes are the tools which suits him better for the woods and a better tool design (other than that one he was asking for) exists for the bushes. The point "fulltang hatches/axes" are a type of modern billhooks came from this context, opening a new thread to discuss will make harder to continue the discussion and will make more difficult for the people to understand all the context.
 
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Trying to avoid the drama on this thread, I'd like to say that I quite enjoy my full tang/monolithic hatchet (one of the CRKT ones). I find the balance and geometry to serve better for utility tasks. They don't chop as well, but I personally prefer them for splitting. I have never had a hatchet that could "swing split" wood like you would do with a real axe or maul, so I typically baton them anyway. The CRKT is better for batoning wood in my experience, and I never have to worry about over strikes. The more neutral balance isn't ideal for chopping (though it still cuts as well as most other hatchets I've seen) but it makes the tool much more nimble for slicing other more knifey tasks as well doing things like limbing trees or cutting brush. Basically any task where I have to hold the tool fully extended. I certainly think it's an axe, just a different style. Still a useful tool in my experience, but I won't comment on what's better/worse for the end user.
 
jblyttle jblyttle I understand the first mesaage is talking about what Hickory n steel Hickory n steel has described as flat stock axes. Take in account I have been talking about them from the beginning. When a type of tool you talk about here (Estwing) has appeared in the conversation I have described it as an axe. That should given you a clue about what I was talking about. When I saw what is a bridgeport axe (thanks to your link) I have said it was an axe. There isn't any type of confusion from my part, other than this is not my main language and I don't understand some expressions and concepts as well as a native would do. For example the tool you were talking about.

Thank you TheDandyLion TheDandyLion , it's allways interesting to read from tool users experience. Take in account there is a huge variation between them and you can choose the one which fits you better, but (if you have the posibility) give a try to a billhook and please share your experience.

For those of you who produce flat stock tools, try new designs based in billhooks or directly produce some billhooks and try them bushcrafting. They are not my fauvorite tool, but these times were bushcrafting is trendy I see there is a big potential in producing bush tools which have been perfected for centuries with modern day material and technologies.
 
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That's completely understandable Agent_H Agent_H , but at this moment I would stick to old ones. A visual look is easy to reproduce but what makes a tool good is not as easy to produce. You need several trial and error cicles untill you reach the desirable weight distribution, different blade types (I mean different blade angles in the same tool), steel and different hardness through the tool.

Anyways if anyone does all of this, please make me know it!
 
Ugaldie said:
jblyttle jblyttle
Thank you TheDandyLion TheDandyLion , it's allways interesting to read from tool users experience. Take in account there is a huge variation between them and you can choose the one which fits you better, but (if you have the posibility) give a try to a billhook and please share your experience.
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I have a used a billhook a fair bit, In fact I spent most of yesterday clearing out willow trees with one of the Italian ones off of Baryonyx Knife Co. I have found it to be a very different tool. I've also used a brush axe a lot and I think the comparison to the full-tang hawk is kind of funny. You can kind of use a tomahawk like a bill hook (especially the spike) to drag and move already cut brush and because of the handle heavy nature you can swing it like a machete. That said, the full tang hawk is going to exhaust you when swinging it like that (in wide sweeping cuts at various angles).

That said, the construction is wholly different (just as different as the tomahawk is to an axe) and the balance and feel is radically different. Just as the full tang hawk feels different to the traditional axe, it's much different to a billhook. It doesn't make it worse or better in my mind, just a different tool all together with a different skill set and a different list of pros/cons.

I would just like to remind everyone that full tang axes are not a NEW idea, they are not a result of the "tacticool" community, though some contemporary designs absolutely are. There are full tang "Horsemans" axes that date back to 1540. Lots of examples that date much earlier with pieces of metal that run down the handle. Technically they are langets and are intended to prevent swords and other bladed tools from cutting through the handle, but they're a tang of sorts, I suppose. There are even stone-age monolithic axes found in the Americas which predate the existence of metals in that region. Of course the first two axes are intended for war fighting and not woods work, and the latter likely only exists because of material restraints, but I still think it's interesting to think how old of an idea it is. I'm sure it was controversial at the time as well. I can just imagine some peasants in the 1550s debating whether or not the full tang axe is an axe or a glaive or whatever else. Perhaps some early native trying to sell this hot new idea to his skeptical buddies.

Addressing the OP, I think you should still try out the full tang hawk. They're fun and still pretty useful tools. Worse case scenario you hate the thing and sell it on the trading forum.
 
TheDandyLion said:
I'm sure it was controversial at the time as well. I can just imagine some peasants in the 1550s debating whether or not the full tang axe is an axe or a glaive or whatever else. Perhaps some early native trying to sell this hot new idea to his skeptical buddies.
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I could be wrong, of course, but I have a feeling it wasn't controversial at all. I think this kind of debate is purely the result of the internet age and what happens to our brains when we sit behind a keyboard. ;) I have a feeling that when the early native handed the first full-tang axe to his buddies, his buddies went out and whacked stuff with it.
 
Park Swan said:
Had this same thought...sounds too fun to be real, maybe I should do something about that.
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I love the look of your hawks, and would love see your approach to a brush axe. That said, if I were you I would use a thinner stock than you normally use on the hawks. If I recall you use .25" stock for the standard hawk, but I think since the bill hook needs a bigger head and maybe a longer handle, I'd use something more in the .15-.18" territory to keep the weight down.
 
TheDandyLion TheDandyLion , I haven't compared any type of billhook with other ones. That said take in account two points, one you can find as much difference between the Baryonix billhook and the flat stock "hatchet" you have tried and any other two types of billhook. And the other I have already shown bilhooks with the same construction as a flat stock "hatchet"s.

The construction of the medieval tool you mention is different to the tool we are talking about here (it's not a flat stock), as you have noticed the context which involved that tool was different too.

What I'm saying here is due to their characteristics flat stock "axes/hatches" are in my opinion better catalogued between billhooks rather than between axes. And being worse than axes and already existing billhooks there was no reason for their birth other than the ease of fabrication and "cheapness".

My points are clear, this thread is eating all the time I prefer to spend in another thread. If there are some interesting new points I will answer them in short messages. Otherwise I will continue with the other thread.
 
I might start a thread in the near future addressing these points in depth, but I can assure you that your preconceptions are largely objectively false. There is as much variation between full tang tomahawks as there are between billhooks, and yet they are all distinctly different from billhooks. Billhooks with an axe shape protruding from the blade are still nothing like the full tang axes myself or other makers produce. Your assessments about performance are dependent on factors which you yourself are not including in your assessment of category. I don't consider any comparisons valid which don't factor weight and grind in the equation at the very least.

The biggest problem with your assessment is very simple. Billhooks are knives, full tang axes are very obviously axes, and you haven't given a single valid reason that they wouldn't be.
 
I know I will not change the minds of some people, "valid reason"s are subjective so each individue can see them as valid or not. I don't see any valid reason here,

Park Swan said:
Billhooks are knives,
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So I could say the same,

Park Swan said:
your preconceptions are largely objectively false
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I'll try to explain it in a short and simplistic way. But first of all, I have to say I have never seen a "full tang axe", due to their size (if you think they are part of axe family) you should refer to them as "fulltang hatches".

Polless axes are produced the same way as polled axes to work in the same way but they can't do some tasks polled axes can do, but all of us call both types axes.

Flat stock "fulltang hatchets" are produced the same way as some billhooks (not axes) are produced and they are produced for the same tasks as billhooks, light wood processing (not all types of wood processing as axes are capable to do). They are slightly different (less capable) so you can't use modern type billhooks for some of tasks classic billhooks can do (same as polled/polles axes). That's easily fixable with little work and using the same production methods you use to produce modern type billhooks, but you can't use the same methods easily and with little work to make modern type billhooks (the ones you produce) perform the same tasks with comparable performance as full weight felling, splitting... axes.
 
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I will have to say I partially agree with Ugaldie Ugaldie . If we are talking about the flat stock full Tang hatchets often produced by knifemakers then I think they do share more in common with the billhook tools that Ugaldie Ugaldie has posted pictures of than what most associate with an ax.
If we are talking about the old Craftsman, marbles and Stanley type full Tang hatchets then no. I think those have more in common with an ax as we know it. And tend to work as such where the flat stock ones tend to just suck. The flat stock lack the weight and cheek and bit geometry as well as balance to be affective. I think most are designed with a mall ninja in mind.
Whenever I see one of the flat stock axes I usually remember the old hatchet, pry bar, hammer nonsense that rusted away in my childhood cabin.
When viewed as a replacement for a big knife I start to see the value in a flat stock ax. One well done could be a far better chopper than a big knife. And still work well for cutting tasks. That said all the ones I have seen and held sucked. I have hope for Park Swan Park Swan design, time will tell.
 
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I'm confused, Woodcraft Woodcraft I cannot for the life of me see how a flat axe is more similar to a billhook. It's shaped like an axe, often times with a nearly identical profile. A full tang chisel is still obviously a chisel, a full tang knife or sword is still a knife or sword, etc. A bill hook is a brush clearing knife, and has a brush clearing hooked blade. An axe is for chopping, and has a small but at the end of a longer handle.
 
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