Recommendation? Full Tang Hatchets/Axes

TheDandyLion said:
Aside from structural differences, you have yet to make any sound argument why a full tang hawk is a billhook. They are really radically different tools for different uses.
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Wikipedia,
"The billhook is a traditional cutting tool used widely in agriculture and forestry for cutting smaller woody material such as shrubs and branches and is distinct from the sickle. It is very common in the wine-growing countries of Europe."

Amazon
"A bill hook is a tool commonly used in the garden. Originally, the bill hook was developed in ancient times as a tool used in agriculture. It later became a popular fighting knife and weapon. The bill hook is a steel blade knife with a hook at the end and looks a bit like a cross between an ax and a knife."

Machete specialist,
"Uses: Billhooks are generally used for cutting around small woody material, such as grape vines, shrubs and branches. Also used for hedge construction and maintenance,"


I would not say they have radically different uses. I would say they have very similar uses. "Looks a bit like a cross between an ax and a knife" could be a description of either if we are discussing flat stock. To be honest, the bill hook seems to be far more useful than the flat stock "axes" I have handled.
 
TheDandyLion said:
Aside from structural differences, you have yet to make any sound argument why a full tang hawk is a billhook. They are really radically different tools for different uses. Your our only hang up seems to be construction, but there are some billhooks that are hung similar to axes and VERY different to other billhooks. Does that make them axes?
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No Dandy I haven't said that, what I'm saying is I think flat stock "fulltang hatchets" are a modern type of billhook. "Fulltang hatchets" (I'm talking about the flat stock ones) are produced the same way some billhook were built (I have shown examples) and even if classic billhooks are more capable both are produced for the same work (light wood management). Even "fulltang hatchets" are visually close to some billhooks I admit their visual resemblance is closer to axes. But the type of construction, intended use and actual use are more important reasons for me so I catalog them as billhooks.

You say some billhook are hung like axes, if you refer to this type of billhook you are wrong, they are not wegded,

0755-4130277.jpg


I have said when I was talking about billhooks I was refering to the meaning of the Spanish traduction of billhook. Some haven't take this in account and have argued a billhook needs a hook to be a billhook. That's not correct, there were hookless billhooks in the anglosaxon world, look at this English producer catalog,

1292%20elwell%20catalogue%201.jpg


Woodcraft said:
Looks a bit like a cross between an ax and a knife
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Good point Woodcraft Woodcraft . Billhook world is very interesting, here you have a link if you want more information about it,

http://billhooks.co.uk/definition/
 
Ugaldie said:
Park Swan Park Swan I don't want a discussion but a conversation, I have said it from beginning and I have said it clearly. Same as many other thing, some of them several times. Some of them have been ignored and you have understood some of them incorrectly the way it interested you the most, in my last message I have demonstrated you have lied about what you said in a post in this same page and instead of admiting it you accuse me about the things you do.



You have "refuted" my point showing ignorance about one of the tools we are talking about here. No thanks, I don't want a dishonest conversation or a discussion with a disonest person.

By the way, in order to make you learn something and make things clear for anybody who is reading this post, you can clear bushes, split wood, debark a tree or even cut grass with a billhook, but the main work for billhooks is this,

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Too far. I haven't once been dishonest in either my points or in my genuine curiosity for your knowledge. That's all I have to say to you.
 
Woodcraft Woodcraft That Rutland pattern seems to be approaching a Japanese nata hatchet. Very cool.

There is of course some crossover between uses for a billhook and hatchet, as I said before that doesn't make them the same tool. Even if they were both solely used to cut the same sized branches, say 1-2" diameter just as an example, they still aren't used generally for the same branches in that size range or the same applications, just as saws and pruning shears are used to cut those sized branches as well but are still distinctly different tools.

I should make it clear, I don't think it's impossible that full tang hatchets could be categorized in ways I hadn't thought of. It's not a big deal to me. I was asking for evidence for the claim because it interests me, not because I'm the defender of full tang axes. I agree with others here that many of them are portly designed and/or balanced, especially for woods use.
 
At one point it seems as though the evolution of the full tang hatchet was being utilised as a link to billhooks.
It seems to me that the full tang hatchet came about as a someone cutting an axe out of flat stock in a mimicry of the Estwing style metal handled hatchets.
As far as Park Swan lying I've found no proof of that.
As to him misinterpreting your arguments that's also very tough to prove as you haven't clearly stated any single argument, rather you keep reframing the same assertion that full tang axes and hatchets are modern interpretations of billhooks.
The last image you put up of the English catalogue of billhooks with some showing straight edges without hooks has been the most convincing part of your argument so far. However I feel as though this shows a far more direct link with big knives and perhaps the modern interpretation of the chopper.
Either way I think everyone needs to tone down on the passive aggressive and have a mature discussion. Being obstinate does not assist in what should primary be a learning exercise for the OP.
As usual this is just my two cents. Feel free to ignore it or respond as you will.
 
I see lack of billhook knowledge between some of the people who is commenting here. Some of them say all or allmost all of my points are invalid, it's a nosense to say that if your knowledge in the subject is very low. Please learn about billhooks in order to have a valid conversation. The link I posted before is a good starting point,

http://billhooks.co.uk

@student99 I have been thinking about the passive aggressive tone, I'm not being aggessive but saying what I think how I think. English is my third language and I learnt it from my second language. Part of the tone you think I'm talking in could lie in the fact understanding second meanings is not allways easy for me and in the same way my words can have some second meanings I'm not conscious about.

But I think the main point lies in the fact that in general people is not reading the posts correctly and/or some of you are missinterpreting my words. For example, you say I have commented Park Swan Park Swan lies or I understand from jblyttle jblyttle comment I have said Park is an ignorant, both are incorrect.

Please let's be honest and focused, there is a lot to win. Due to different reasons we have lost a huge amount of information in the occidental world, we know a lot of things about some asiatic or any other cultures but little of ours. They worth to be studied, but our heritage is at least as interesant as their one. HEMA is a good example.

These days of bushcrafting and people returning to a sort of classic homesteading we use to know about nata or we have invented "new" tools less capable than the ones our ancestors did use, but we have forgotten billhooks. Combining old tools with modern materials and techniques has quite a big potential to produce really good tools.

Actually it has been a independent rebirth of (what I consider) a billhook, a new pattern of billhook born from the evolution of a knife the @Daniel Koster monster nessie. We need a rebirth of different types of billhooks, if they are produced with this level of craftmanship, materials and processes it would be a big improvement for homesteaders and bushcrafters.
 
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Ugaldie Ugaldie
I respect your difficulties with the language. As a student of linguistic anthropology I appreciate the struggles with connotative and subjective meanings betwixt different lexical constructions.
In post 56 of this thread you specifically stated that Park swan "had lied". For most of us here our understanding is if you say someone has lied you are calling them a liar: serious insult in any language.
I disagree with you about the modern interpretation of the billhook. I personally think that big working knives and billhooks are more closely related than billhooks and full tang hatchets however I respect your right to an opinion much as you have respected mine.
As to passive aggressive tones I believe that's equally shared between most of the members of this discussion thus far and I concede that my own initial posting in this thread was more confrontational than it should have been. For that I apologise. All of us here are mature adults who should be able to discuss things in a calm and level headed manner which is my hope for things moving forward in this thread.

As to the second part of your above posting I whole heartedly agree. I have sold various modern billhooks to contractors in my region and all have reported great results from them. I still hold that they are a different tool to a full tang hatchet regardless of variation but they are a marvellous tool capable of great use still in the modern world.
I agree that our culture is important to study and learn from so that our own unique heritage is not lost, nor any of the specialist knowledge that came from it.
Hopefully we can all bury the hatchet (badooom tsss) and move forward with a cool and calm discussion of our original view points and drop any personal injury (real or perceived) in the spirit of community which has set Blade Forums apart form 90% of other internet message boards.
 
In my culture being lied by someone is a serious insult, nowadays old traditions are being lost but we have been known as the people whose word has the same value as a certified document. But you are right S Student762 , I completely forgot I said it. I thought you were talking about post 53, I apologise.

Thank you for the linguistic comprehension, as a curiosity I'll tell you my native language is Euskera (Basque language), the second one is Spanish and the third one is th English. As you see they not shine for their simmilarities.

I think the term I have used to refer to the billhook has been the main missunderstanding reason for the people, its the same as if I had use axehook to refer to all axes. I have use that term because that's the most used actual term to refer to all types of bills. There have been plenty terms to refer to these tools, the one I will use now will be "hand bill", this will confuse less to people. Don't worry they are synonymous. If you want to know more about these terms go here. It's the etymology section of the same webpage I have shared previously. There are more places but this is the one I find most useful by far.

http://billhooks.co.uk/definition/etymology/

I'm sorry but I will not bury my axes, they are some of our basic homesteading tools ;). But no problem we can continue talking about hand bills without any resentments from my part.
 
Very cool site, Ugaldie. I knew there were some variations on the theme, but some I wouldn't even have categorized as anything else but "choppers". Live and earn.
 
Woodcraft said:
This little guy looks like he might be good for food prep and brush clearing at camp.

View attachment 719850
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Yes, it will also be good at wood cutting and batoning. I myself prefer the simple hooked handbill to open paths through bramble and then axes for the serious wood work.

Moonw said:
Very cool site, Ugaldie. I knew there were some variations on the theme, but some I wouldn't even have categorized as anything else but "choppers". Live and earn.
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True, for example some the ones used for vineyard prunning in the Pyrenees vicinity are quite different to the tool generally comes to our min when we think about handbills.

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I'm of the opinion that most full-tang hatchets(with or without spikes) are more closely related to the category of crash-axes or breaching tools than they are to the billhook.

Not trying to start, or continue, an argument. Just re-directing the conversation, and expressing my opinion!
 
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