Full tang verse hidden tang

[giant1]

Did a little more research and came across this site which pretty much sums up hidden tangs for me.

Quote from Jay Fishers' website:

You might read elsewhere on the internet that it is debatable whether the full tang or the hidden tang is stronger. This is not even a close argument. The full tang has full thickness across the width of the blade at the most critical area, in front of and behind the front bolster location. On a hidden tang, this is where the blade is ground down and reduced in size and thickness to a shoulder (below). The hidden tang also only has a small width of tang running through the handle to the threaded portion where the pommel is screwed on. So there simply is no way that the hidden tang is even comparable in blade-to-handle strength to the full tang. The hidden tang simply has less metal in the entire handle. Detailed description and illustration of the hidden tang knife handle below

The link http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm

Knife Anatomy 1

 

[Vicarious Reality]

I find it odd that more people doesn't use a tapered tang.

 

[cramsey3006]

I've broken two hidden tang knives. One was a Normark Hunter, the other was a Buck 639 Fieldmate. Both were being used to baton logs. Both knives broke in the same place....the middle of the blade itself. The tangs were fine.

 

[Big Mike]

As an engineer who specializes in structures, I know a full tang knife is stronger.

But, as a knife user, I prefer the feel and balance of hidden tang knives.

The thicker the blade the more pronounced the balance factor is.

Big blades with hidden tange are just more lively in hand.

That said, tapered tangs and skeletonized tangs can also be employed to help with a knife's balance.



Just one knife users opinion.




Big Mike

 

[Ebbtide]

I find it odd that more people doesn't use a tapered tang.

Tapered tangs add another layer of diffeculty in the knifemaking process.
Tapered tangs are also difficult to do well.
If you want them, you will pay for them.

Full tang stronger?
Sure.
Hidden tang strong enough?
Sure.

Buy what you like.

 

[Kaizen1]

I think a good answer has been spread out through this thread. Hidden tangs like any other knife, when built for quality with quality materials, are strong enough for reasonable knife uses. Compared to full tang knives of equal quality (and measurements at the blade), you'll lose strength where the blade meets the tang or at the tang itself. A key question is whether that strength loss would matter.

What you gain from hidden tangs generally speaking, is an opportunity for a lighter handle, which may allow a more comfortable balance to the knife or reduce the overall weight of a knife; something that might be key if one is already carrying too much crap on her/himself as it is. That said, I think Busse and Busse-kin knives found an interesting compromise there for strength and handle weight with the hidden tang/ Res-C handle material. What they probably lose for many folks is aesthetic appeal.

All in all, quality fixed blades made for heavy but reasonable use will be sufficient for one's required tasks. Wanting a knife that focuses more on any of the features on a knife (blade strength, handle/tang strength, overall weight, blade to handle weight ratio/ balance, aesthetics, etc) will likely cause a "loss" in the other features of the knife. This all heavily depends on the user and her/his preferences as again, any quality knife will be able to do any reasonable knife task.

If one has special needs, then that compromise will simply fail in the other areas, eg. Busses won't win an art knife contest or give the nostalgia of one's time with grandpa and your average scandinavian knife won't get you through many concrete bricks or allow you to cut through too many car roofs.

 

[Vicarious Reality]

Tapered tangs add another layer of diffeculty in the knifemaking process.
Tapered tangs are also difficult to do well.
If you want them, you will pay for them.

Full tang stronger?
Sure.
Hidden tang strong enough?
Sure.

Buy what you like.

What layer? You just have to set the cutting machine to an ''organic'' curve instead of a structurally weaker straight shoulder as found in ka-bar and buck knives.

 

[mmarkh]

That is an excellent analogy. :thumbup:

As an engineer, my response is, "once something is strong enough for its intended function, designing in additional strength is a waste if you have to give up some other property to get it."So, if your usage of a knife does not require the extra strength of a full tang, why give up anything just to get something you don't need. If your usage does require it, go for it.

Generations of knife users, who certainly could have had full tang knives if they really thought the full tang was needful, did not. Perhaps your needs are different from theirs.

 

[DennisStrickland]

some of the hardest used knives in the world were the japanese katana. as mentioned hunting knives full tanged came into more popularity about 1900. it's hard to imagine any more hard use than all the men whom came before us.--dennis

 

[JParanee]

some of the hardest used knives in the world were the japanese katana. as mentioned hunting knives full tanged came into more popularity about 1900. it's hard to imagine any more hard use than all the men whom came before us.--dennis

Dennis this is the best commet IMHO of the entire thread

I dont frown on full tang knives but I shy away from them these days

 

[Ebbtide]

What layer? You just have to set the cutting machine to an ''organic'' curve instead of a structurally weaker straight shoulder as found in ka-bar and buck knives.

I'm afraid there is more to it than just "setting the cutting machine"

 

[somber]

I find it odd that more people doesn't use a tapered tang.

This is probably because a lot of knife makers don't forge their knives and instead just use stock removal to make their knives. It's easier on the knife maker, but the end result is really a disservice to the consumer. Don't forget that a majority will also grind their secondary bevel before heat treat.

 

[jackknife]

some of the hardest used knives in the world were the japanese katana. as mentioned hunting knives full tanged came into more popularity about 1900. it's hard to imagine any more hard use than all the men whom came before us.--dennis

Really exellent point, Dennis!:thumbup:

But you could also include the crusaders broad swords, the Roman Gladius that helped take over the known world, the Conquistidors rapiers, and navel cutlasses of the days of wooden ships and iron men.

In almost 40 years of friendship, I never saw Bill Moran make a full tang knife, yet he was merciless in his testing of the Bladesmith society rules that he wrote up for a smith to pass his master smith exam.

Carl.

 

[A.P.F.]

some of the hardest used knives in the world were the japanese katana. as mentioned hunting knives full tanged came into more popularity about 1900. it's hard to imagine any more hard use than all the men whom came before us.--dennis

Dennis, you always make me chuckle with your succinct and damnably hard to argue with statements.

 

[hardheart]

This is probably because a lot of knife makers don't forge their knives and instead just use stock removal to make their knives. It's easier on the knife maker, but the end result is really a disservice to the consumer. Don't forget that a majority will also grind their secondary bevel before heat treat.

neither taper tangs nor the point in the process at which the bevel is ground have anything to do with forging vs stock removal. Not every one can or does forge to shape, and most of the forged knives we see make a trip to the belt grinder after being hit with a hammer.

As for full tang vs hidden, there are far too many types of tangs to simply create two arbitrary groups. There are "full" tang knives with most of the metal in the center cut out, and there are hidden tang knives with only a fraction of an inch of handle material covering the large amount of steel inside. Tangs can protrude less than an inch to the full length of the handle, they can be drilled, cupped, tapered, welded, notched, and altered a dozen other ways that you may not even see or be aware of. Matters of strength, weight, balance, comfort, impact, mechanical attachment, and just plain looks all influence the choice.

 

[Gunny Bob]

I'd posit that heat treat and quality of steel should be more of a consideration; all things being equal.

 

[somber]

neither taper tangs nor the point in the process at which the bevel is ground have anything to do with forging vs stock removal. Not every one can or does forge to shape, and most of the forged knives we see make a trip to the belt grinder after being hit with a hammer.

As for full tang vs hidden, there are far too many types of tangs to simply create two arbitrary groups. There are "full" tang knives with most of the metal in the center cut out, and there are hidden tang knives with only a fraction of an inch of handle material covering the large amount of steel inside. Tangs can protrude less than an inch to the full length of the handle, they can be drilled, cupped, tapered, welded, notched, and altered a dozen other ways that you may not even see or be aware of. Matters of strength, weight, balance, comfort, impact, mechanical attachment, and just plain looks all influence the choice.

You missed the point of my post completely. Regardless, here is a knife I made:

Can you see how this knife didn't take a trip to the belt grinder after being hit with a hammer?

 

[Vicarious Reality]

I'm afraid there is more to it than just "setting the cutting machine"

And that would be?

 

[Undertow82]

I'm no expert but I know this: There's a popular knife company that makes several fixed blade "survival" knives with hidden tangs and I would argue that this company is founded on and famous for their fixed blade knives, however, if you break one of their knives while batoning logs or striking the butt cap, they will not cover the damages under warranty. They will tell you that you were not using the knife for it's intended purpose.

There are a couple knife companies that are also fairly well known that use full-tang construction and they basically challenge people to brake their knives the way their warranties state. They want you to baton your knife through logs and use your butt-cap to strike things because that's what a "survival" knife should be able to do, I believe.

I've read about and seen pics on these forums of people using hidden-tang constructed knives to baton through logs with no problems and maybe most people can get away with it and not break their knives. I just know I like the way a full-tang knife feels as far as how it's weighted and I also like that you can take the scales off if you need or want to.

The fact that the company that makes my favorite full-tang survival knives say that I can't break their knives and if I do, they'll fix it or give me a new one, compared to the first companies policy, speaks for itself.

 

[Gadgetaholic]

Generally a full tang knife will be very strong, I doubt my Beckers will break even when chopping or batoning with them.

Is a partial/stick tang knife strong enough?
Well, some won't be and some will, it depends on how strong they have been made.

Here's one that IS strong enough:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/837098-Hidden-tangs-for-bushcraft
If I was getting a custom made knife I'd be happy with a non-full tang as long as the maker was making the knife strong enough. Full tang isn't necessary, good construction is all that you need.

I have knives that I can chop & baton with that aren't full tang, but I have faith in the manufacturers and if they say their knives can handle the hard use then that is good enough for me.