Full tang verse hidden tang

Gadgetaholic said:
I have knives that I can chop & baton with that aren't full tang, but I have faith in the manufacturers and if they say their knives can handle the hard use then that is good enough for me.
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Rule #1 when buying ''important'' equipment: Never accept what the manufacturer say about it as the only truth. They have interests.
 
somber said:
You missed the point of my post completely. Regardless, here is a knife I made:

5543917644_c1861d92b2_z.jpg


Can you see how this knife didn't take a trip to the belt grinder after being hit with a hammer?
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Looks like it took a trip to a belt grinder somewhere along the line. I don't think those grind lines leading from the spine to the edge were caused by a hammer
 
Vicarious Reality said:
What layer? You just have to set the cutting machine to an ''organic'' curve instead of a structurally weaker straight shoulder as found in ka-bar and buck knives.
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I think you misunderstood. He was referring to the thickness of the tang decreasing from ricasso to butt. I think you're referring to the shoulder contour of the tang where the guard goes. I agree with your point, but that's not the same thing as uniformly tapering a tang.
 
Vicarious Reality said:
Rule #1 when buying ''important'' equipment: Never accept what the manufacturer say about it as the only truth. They have interests.
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Surely that depends on the manufacturers that we are talking about?

What interests are you referring to?
Some manufacturers have a strong interest in their products gaining a solid reputation for being high quality, strong, tough hard use knives. People buying their product and having that product break and then complaining on the internet isn't what they are aiming for.
Brands that have a reputation for making tough knives got that reputation somehow and if they want to keep that reputation then they'll keep making tough knives.

Of course some manufacturers don't even have a good reputation to keep, so we don't trust what they say at all.
 
I try to buy full width, full tang knives. Simply for thier ruggedness. I owned a Ka-Bar from Camillus. I dropped it from about 4' onto concrete by mistake. It broke, specifically the end cap where the leather washers started. It was a rat tail tang. I will never own another rat tail just for that reason. Even my kitchen knives are full tang. I don't regularly baton with my outdoor knives, but they are not worth having if you can't put them to hard use, IMO anyway. My "use" is a lot of peoples "abuse". A knife in a survival situation, is the LAST thing you need to fail, regardless the reason.
 
elkins45 said:
Looks like it tooki a trip to a belt grinder somewhere along the line. I don't think those grind lines leading from the spine to the edge were caused by a hammer
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Actually, no. Revolving waterstone. It should be noted that that was after temper - pretty far removed from the hammering stage.
 
Also the coldsteel laredo bowie and natchez bowie are both hidden tang connected to a cable and screw. They are both very capable and strong knives.
 
somber said:
Actually, no. Revolving waterstone. It should be noted that that was after temper - pretty far removed from the hammering stage.
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Ahhh....gotcha. Was it a manually powered stone? Would love to see a picture of your setup. I do think that this isn't at odds with the point that was being made: some sort of mechanical abrasive removed stock to shape the knife rather than an impact displacing it. I don't make much of a distinction between a wheel, belt or file other than that some are powered and some are manual.

I guess it makes a difference to a maker who wants to make a knife using no power tools, and I totally respect that. I have mucho respect for a guy who can get even grinds using hand tools.
 
somber said:
You missed the point of my post completely.
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Perhaps I did, because as I said, tapering tangs and the point at which the bevel is ground has absolutely nothing at all to do with forging. I have 16 blanks ready for heat treat, then they will be hollow ground afterward. None of them are forged.

Stock removal has nothing to do with doing a disservice to the customer. Quite a few knives are made like that. Bob Loveless, SR Johnson, and many other celebrated stock removal makers tapered a tang just fine, and their 'disservices' go for high prices.

Forging vs stock removal has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the steel, the properties of the steel, or the soundness of the overall design in the 21st century with a competent maker. Since you tempered that blade, then maybe you also austenized it. Maybe you stress relieved it as well. And some normalizing cycles. Perhaps a spherodized annealing. Enough thermal cycles after forging, and a look under a microscope at 1000x wouldn't show a difference from stock removal. Forging the secondary bevel before heat treat vs grinding it in doesn't make a difference to cutting performance. Tapering the tang by drawing out the steel isn't better than grinding it in. Did you drill those holes in the tang or punch them through on the anvil? Is one method a 'disservice' compared to the other?
 
1216241748-mora_xray.jpg


If you google around you can find some cool x rays of knives showing the tang and construction.
 
Hard H2O said:
1216241748-mora_xray.jpg


If you google around you can find some cool x rays of knives showing the tang and construction.
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I think I recognize most of them

Top to bottom:

Frosts craftsman (army)

Frosts clipper

???

Mora 2000

Eriksson 500 series

How close am I?
 
Samael said:
I give you Exhibit A:

knifecons.jpg


That knife has been holding up quite well under some pretty adverse circumstances for close to 75 years now.
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It all depends on the heat treat. I took one exactly like the one pictured to RVN. It lasted about a month. I stopped one day, and leaned against the fender of a truck, for a short rest, I heard a 'snap', and reached down to unsheath the knife. The handle came off in my hand, while the blade stayed in the sheath. It had broken right at the junction of the tang which was about 1/4" wide. Since then, I don't by stick tang knives.

EarlFH
 
Something to consider here is if the construction is strong enough for the intended use. Properly done, a hidden tang knife should hold up to its intended use as well as a full tang knife -- in fact it should take considerable effort in each case to actually prove which one is stronger.

Another thing to consider is some of the old Bowies that you see. Many of these are hidden tangs and have probably seen some pretty heavy use in their life.

A picture is worth a thousand words, so a video is worth more. This is me doing a performance test with a 300+ layer Damascus blade that is a hidden tang construction. Keep in mind during the bending of the knife, the tang cannot even bend.

[video=youtube;fWNh6UvE8lA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWNh6UvE8lA[/video]

Brian
 
I'd say personal preference is the rule. MY idea of a perfect knife is a full width, full tang. I just love em. HD & made for hard use. My definition of knife use----is many people's definition of knife abuse. I also like thick wide blades. The Becker BK2 is 1/4" thick, wide blade, & full width, full tang. It screams "is that all you got ?"
 
elkins45 said:
I think I recognize most of them

Top to bottom:

Frosts craftsman (army)

Frosts clipper

???

Mora 2000

Eriksson 500 series

How close am I?
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KJ Eriksson #711. Very comfortable handle. Carbon steel.

dantzk.
 
The Government said:
A stick tang can be much more comfortable...

1) They can be organically shaped to fit the hand from one piece of material and can therefore be made without seems or gaps that may create hot spots.

2) Shock from a stick tang knife will be somewhat lessened due to the handle blocking the tang from your hand. Generally the handle material will be softer than the steel it houses. On a full tang knife your hand is exposed to shock directly from the tang.

Oh, and you can also make stacked leather handles that way:D:thumbup:.
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I don't mean to hijack; but I wanted to ask about this post.

Would this apply only to choppers and knives that impact; or would this be as much of an issue with small knives used for fine cutting tasks? Assuming that the knife fits your hand, would you still encounter shock through a full tang if you weren't actually chopping or doing any kind of impact cutting?
 
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