Fulltime Makers: Fears and Satisfaction

Mark, it's already been said...on both sides. Only you can make that decision. I am self employed...sort of...I own most of the stock in the company, but I found many years ago that I couldn't make a living at something I enjoy. I told Bruce Evans once, that when he started doing well and it became a real business, it wouldn't be fun anymore.

I've seen your knives and they are very good. To make a decent living in this business though, you have to be super talented as a metal smith, artist, public relations man and business manager or be able to cut expenses to the bone and produce a solid working knife and grow slowly.

Bruce Bump is among the most talented makers I've seen (don't be insulted anyone, there are a lot of super talents here, Bruce just summed up the issue in his post so he becomes the example)
and he admits that he has gone back to work.

I can only tell you my friend, that you need to think about it hard before taking the jump. After that, if you feel that you are ready, go for it.
 
J. was telling me about this thread and I thought he left a few things out so I wanted to reply, too. If your concern is keeping up with the Jones', don't even think about going full time. If you are more concerned with quality of life and self-satisfaction, then consider it, but don't jump in yet. The only thing you will be gaining is opportunity, and what you do with that is entirely up to you. We are always working or talking about work, but...
-When Danny was about to take his first bath, I called J. at the shop and he came up to help.
-If the weather is nice, we can take a walk around the hayfield at lunch.
-Danny is going to grow up being a part of our business and life, not wondering what that mysterious place called "work" is. Because of that, he will probably have a much greater understanding of the value of money and a greater feeling of worth because he will be helping us. Even if he just cleans up the shop, it matters. I swept countless construction sites when I was younger and it makes a difference to know that you are helping your parents.
-If one of us is sick, we can take care of each other and still "go to work."
-We sit down to meals as a family, even if it means carrying sandwiches out to the shop.
-When Danny gets older, we won't have to ask anyone's permission to go to school plays and sporting events.
-When there is a family emergency, we can be there.

We are always just scraping by with the bills and there have been times when we have had to decide between sanding belts and the electric bill, but we always seem to make it. (Without the sanding belts, the electric bill doesn't stand a chance, so you know where our priorities are.) It's really a matter of deciding what is most important for you and everyone is different in that respect. A steady paycheck means security for a lot of people and there is none of that when you work for yourself. If you have health problems, benefits may be the motivating factor for keeping a job. There is no magic formula and no "right" answer. If you do decide to go full time, keep good records, get receipts for everything and write off as much as possible.

Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it easy? No. Nothing worthwhile ever is.
Tess Neilson
 
Tess,, a lot of sense there. :)
I'll add self motivation too and a lot of it..
It's very easy to have a thousand things to do that doesn't pay while being self employed. but to take off time just because you feel like it.. what's that worth?:)
 
It's very easy to have a thousand things to do that doesn't pay while being self employed. but to take off time just because you feel like it.. what's that worth?

Dan....at last I get to disagree with something you said.;) When you work for yourself, you have the worst boss in existance. I haven't had a vacation for 20+ years. My work weeks are always 60 hours or more and I play he!! getting out to hunt. Several years ago I left my cell phone on in my tree stand and one of my clients called me at 6:00 AM.

I think Tess summed it up pretty well.;)


Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it easy? No. Nothing worthwhile ever is.
If you are more concerned with quality of life and self-satisfaction, then consider it, but don't jump in yet.
 
Originally posted by peter nap
It's very easy to have a thousand things to do that doesn't pay while being self employed. but to take off time just because you feel like it.. what's that worth?

Dan....at last I get to disagree with something you said.;) When you work for yourself, you have the worst boss in existance. I haven't had a vacation for 20+ years. My work weeks are always 60 hours or more and I play he!! getting out to hunt. Several years ago I left my cell phone on in my tree stand and one of my clients called me at 6:00 AM.
Click to expand...

You can if you'd like Peter:) and
I know what your saying believe me..
but I'll tell you why,, I feel that way now..

It took me almost 15 years of self employment to loosen up.
63 hours a day for 6 days a week.
for a normal week and it went back farther than the
15 years, 24 to be as close as I can think
9 of them working in the family business...
about 3 years ago I started taking Saturdays off for hunting
it almost made me sick, and I left the wife to watch the shop.

now I look forward to it..I figured out a long time ago that
nobody cares if you get any rest as long as they get what they want.. so you have to take it.
you can live you whole life working or have some fun
along the way..
I'm now picking the some fun..:)
I can put a gone fishing sign up with out batting an eye now,
weeeeell almost :D but I can do it...
 
I am already a full time knifemaker..in my heart anyway. For a living i still have to run into burning buildings. Fortunately i love doing it. And as far as knifemaking goes,im a pretty good fireman. That said though, knives have always fascinated me as well. I dont love them because theyre going to make me rich, or because people will like me more because i try to make knives when possible. I love them because theyre part of me, a way for me to forget everyday life,and peoples misery.Which incidentally there is plenty of. I would say if your in a position to contemplate making blades full time,then you are a thousand times more fortunate than a whole mess of people. the neilsons,make excellent knives and sheaths,bruce bump, Kit Carson,Mark..heck i could go on for a month about the awesome pieces ive seen here in my short time.
For each of us tho,there is a path on which we are intended to walk. Pray and contemplate what decisions you make, and God will lead you right.
Thats my 02 cents..whatever you do..good luck!!
P.S. Tess,couldnt have said it better..
 
Mark,
As Swede and Peter said, Tess summed it up nicely.

I'd like to add a few things.

I've been making knives for over 30 years, with the last 10 being full time. The first 20 years were during my Army career. There were fair years and bad years with knifemaking, depending on where I was stationed. Since my retirement in 1993 all the years have been good ones, except for a few times I wanted to quit and go drive for J.B. Hunt Trucking :)

Way back, I set up long term goals that incorporated both my military and personal objectives. Hard work and long hours were the name of the game. In the last 5 years of my career I started to really push hard, with days that ran from 0400 - 2300 six and seven days a week, between the job and coming home and hitting the knife shop. Thank goodness I had an understanding wife that knew what was driving me.
My plan was to have everything in position the day I retired to change from BDUs to overalls and a tee shirt. I made every knife show I could find that didn't conflict with the day job. I shook hands with any and everyone that I met at those shows. I even made some money on occasion.

All that hard work paid off when the plan came together. I guess what I'm saying is that you have to have a good plan, stick with it, and work hard. Learn the business side of it while there is time. Get your name and work out to the public as often as you can. My father used to say "Never miss a chance to get your name in the paper" :)
Find a couple of good mentors that are willing to help you. Never miss the chance to show off one of your knifes. The internet is great but the world of knives stretches way beyond the borders of the internet.

Now, the bad part. Do this Before you go full time. It may take a year, it may take 5 years but in the end you will be in alot better position to go full time. It's sad but in my years I've seen more try it and fail than I have those that made it.

I almost got out of the Army at 15 years but thank goodness for a couple of wonderful knifemaker mentors and my wife for talking me out of that bad idea.

To add a little more, my son in law, Mike Obenauf has been full time for the last 3 years. He works in my shop and is putting out some great knives. He's paying his bills but has no insurance or retirement planning. When we are working on the collaborations, he's on my payroll but I can't help him with insurance, etc.

In essence, he is working that 1-5 years, building up credibility, customers, and getting his name in the paper every chance he can.
If he was buying equipment, paying all the utilities and materials it would be tough, really tough. He's going to make it though, I have no doubt. He has a good mentor :)

I'm not really trying to talk you out of going full time. I just want you to consider the things I said. Come up with a plan, look at how much you have to do in a days or weeks time to pay the bills, allowing for hours that are non knifemaking, and sometimes those are way too many, and then decide. There is nothing wrong with being a part time maker, if you know why you are and what it takes to change it.

FWIW, I still put in 10-12 hour days 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. It's just nice to know that I don't have to:) Those 30 years turned me into a workaholic but a controlled one :)

Anything I can do or any questions I can answer, just let me know.

Hope this helps you decide.
 
Wow, A whole lot to ponder. I guess one more year of part time wont hurt me. Ive thought it through and taken every opinion given to heart. Thanks to all for sharing their wisdom and experiances.
I guess one more year is not going to hurt me.My goal is Spring of 2005. And if opportunity knocks it may change. I know I have the drive to make knives. To me its more of an obsession. I'm willing to work. Heck I get up at 0400, work till 1300 then go home and work in the shop till 2200. My equipment blows:( I do need to work on that. And I definately need to get out to shows.The health insurance issue is a biggie. It sure would be nice if we could get all of the knife makers in the country an inexpensive health insurance option. Lots to think about.

Thanks everybody:)

Mark
 
That would be great (the insurance thing). Fortunately, our little boy is covered but, Tess and I...nope. Other clubs and guilds have insurance plans though. Tess use to be a compeditive figure skater and I remember the skating guild use to have insurance plans available. I guess it's just a matter of having enough people involved. I would be nice to go to the doctors office and whip out my ABS/Guild medical-perscription card.
:D :D :D
 
I copied this from CKD in the buisness of knife making section. Pam scherer (sp) posted this a while back. I never checked into it. Could be worthwhile as a supplement anyway. Anyway here goes.


Health Insurance
This is for all of you (like me) that have no health insurance.

I have often wondered why neither of the major knife organizations didn't offer some kind of group health insurance. (I guess a majority of the members already have insurance through their spouses, or through their retirement.)

Being self-employed makes getting reasonably priced health insurance almost impossible. I have searched everywhere, but the prices have been more than I can afford. This has caused me to avoid doctor's visits for over 10 years.

I finally found an artist's group that offers an insurance policy that I can afford. (This is a "real" insurance policy instead of the ones that claim to save you 60%.) The best thing is that they cover all artisans (including knifemakers)!

The organization is called Fractured Atlas. Click here for website. The membership costs $75/yr. The bare-bones insurance is just under $75/ month. They seem to offer quite a bit more than just health insurance (grant proposal help, etc).

I don't know if this will help anyone, but I thought I'd pass it on.

Pam
 
I might be sticking my neck out here, but I noticed a lot of the responses here included concerns over business-savvy and marketing ability. Just so happens I have a BS in Marketing. Along with this, I worked in advertising for a while. I may not be the leading authority on the subject, but I'd certainly be willing to offer some free advice to a fellow knifemaker bent on going solo. If anyone has any questions about any aspect of advertising their goods, or advice about business incorporation or management, I'd be happy to help.
 
It might be nice if we could get Kit to make a sticky thread on the buisness of knifemaking. Help Kit!!

Mark
 
Tess is going to look ito it too. When I told her about your post she looked like a mother wolf with a lame elk in her sights. I'll post what she finds.
 
"If anyone has any questions about any aspect of advertising their goods, or advice about business incorporation or management, I'd be happy to help."

Thank you for the offer Jeff. I often look back, wishing I had gotten at least a minor in business.... 2 quick questions, I see the name of your buisness is "Black Crow Forge" - Would a bladesmith typically need to file for a dba to use a name like this? Also, what type of incorporation do you prefer for the knifemaker (llc?) and why? Thank you Jeff.

Tim
 
Da$n.....Mark...If you want to go into business and get rich start making pens....Every time I think I've made the last da$n one, someone sees them and starts the "lo all these years I've wanted a special pen like that ":mad: :mad: :mad: :barf:
 
I'll get on with my responce in the next paragraph but first: J., in the late seventies, when I was a mere youngster with big ideas, I too was privilaged to tend bar at an American Legion. It was Post #1 at Wheeling West Virginia. I often remember those evenings that grew into late early mornings and wish so much I could go back to those days. Many of the better of people I did meet there and also many of those not so better than most.

For me, I hope my health is well enough that when I am too old to travel about to make an income I can then become a full time knife maker.

RL
 
Trace said a couple of weeks ago that there are two kinds of custom knifemakers; Those who have a full time job and grind part time, and those who grind full time and have a wife with a good job!
Truthfully though there are only a handful of knifemakers that make real big bucks, but you never heard of them for their first twenty years or so, when they worked until midnight seven days a week and ate Ramen-Noodles to save up enough money to buy a new grinder or oven. It takes a certain kind of person not to give up before they become "an overnight success"! Good luck on whatever you decide.
 
One of my favorite sayings (and I don't remember if I made it up or heard it) is..."I don't know alot of rich knifemakers but, I know alot of happy ones".

I'll go with happy.:D
 
Aint that the truth J,

If I wanted to be rich, kniofe making would not be the obvious path. I just want to be the master or my own demise:D


Any luck about the insurance thing? J

Mark
 
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