Fulltimers: Seeking feedback and insight (long)

David Schott

David Schott

Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
3,041
Hello,
This may be long, but I want to fully explain myself in order to get some sound advice from those who have gone through something similar.

Recently, I have been conducting what I consider to be a healthy re-evaluation of life. We only live once, and in really coming to terms with the finite length of a life, I have begun thinking about what it is that I actually want to do in that lifetime. So often, I hear older people saying "I wish when I was 30, someone had told me to pursue what makes me happy, and at least have taken a shot."

I honestly do believe that job satisfaction is integral to life satisfaction. After all, most of us who work a fulltime job spend more time at work than with our families. If this is true, wouldn't it be crazy to be eating up such a significant portion of such a short life doing something that doesn't feed your soul and enrich the time away from work as a result?

All that being said, consider it simply a little background on my current state of mind. I have what I consider a steady, secure job. It pays the bills and I am comfortable. All this means nothing, though, if I am unable to put myself on a path that at age 80, I can look back and say "I’ve done a lot of things, and always pursued my dreams and never compromised my life goals for fear of failure." I refuse to grow old with great memories but regrets for never having taken that chance to pursue the things that truly inspire me.

Inspiration and passion can only take you so far, though. There are enough starving artists out there for me to be honest with myself and not just be an idealist hippy about my choices in life. If it were just me, that’d be a different story. But I have a Fiancée, a mortgage and a real responsibility to my future family, as well.

I have been dabbling in knives for years now. At times, I was making pretty consistently, at others, I went periods where work and other responsibilities didn’t allow any shop time at all. My work has always been well received, even early on. I’ve sold knives and had happy customers, but it’s always been a hobby/pastime/passion for me. As all part-time knifemakers do, I always said “Who knows, someday I might go fulltime!” As time has passed, it’s quickly become apparent that if I don’t have enough time to take orders, fill them on time and develop more skills, there’s no chance of that. Producing a few nice knives a year and having them well received is a completely different monster than selling knives to put bread on the table. I don’t intend to equate passion or drive for skill or ability, or to assume that a reasonable skill and ability level is all that is required to be successful or even reasonable successful.

As far as the actual business of knifemaking, I have no doubt I could draw up a sound business plan in terms of materials, depreciation, shop rates, costs and don’t doubt my ability to conduct a full business analysis that would tell me what I would need to produce with what frequency and in what volume in order to make the amount I would be comfortable earning. (I do similar analysis as my job) Obviously, producing any volume of knives means there must be a large enough market for the knives I am making, as well. I am not obtuse enough to think that even if I were to produce 200 knives this year, there would always be 200 customers waiting with cash-in-hand at my shop door, either. I am honest enough to know that beyond the financial aspect of what I need to live, there is a whole other side of the market found in the wants of collectors and the “pulse” of the community.

Getting to the point, can some of you fulltime makers offer some insight into the following questions?
o How did you make the “switch”? What drove you to make that switch and when did you finally bite the bullet and jump in with both feet?
o Was it a leap of faith or a sound evaluation of the business and market in comparison to your own skills and reception up to that point?
o Did you go “Half-Time” in a more serious way, such as switching from a fulltime job to a part-time job to see if you could supplement your previous salary with knifemaking?
o Did you conduct a full business and market analysis, or simply say “F-It, I’m doing this. Period.”

I will be going back through similar threads to really begin thinking about the process before anything else, so if anyone also has some great past threads on the subject, I would certainly appreciate it.

I appreciate the time anyone takes to have read this long post, I know we are all really busy.
 
I am now once again a full time self employed metalsmith, (just got downsized out of my most recent dayjob) I have had day jobs on and off to support my self employment. I would love it if my business provided enough income to support paying the bills, prescriptions, health insurance, fixing the house, etc. I have been a self employed artist of one type or another for most of my life, I was a professional photographer (what I went to college for, I opened a studio in '91 had to get a day job to keep it going in '93) and have had my businesses either in photography or jewelry to provide fulfillment and supplement income, and a day gig to pay the bills ever since. I had my mid life crisis when I was young enough to survive it without destroying anyone else's life, looking back I wish I had gone to college for something that actually had career potential, I was niaeve enough to believe that one should pick a career path that provides personal lifetime satisfacton. now I believe that one should get a career that pays the bills and allows time and budget for artistic satisfaction after hours. It is really hard to make art on an empty stomach and depleted wallet.
If you have the increasingly rare well paying job keep it and use it to fund your passions, if you have to sacrifice time spent doing something, eliminate television, you will be amazed how much time you gain.

my opinion for what it's worth

-Page
 
David, I was in construction for 30 yrs. and had made crude knives as a part-time hobby for 7-8 yrs when the construction job I was working on finished up. At that time (10 yrs ago) my wife was managing a restaurant and making fair money so I /we decided to give it a go. If it wouldn't have been for her my knife career would have been over as fast as it started. Its a tough business and to be honest, if I had a good secure job I would still be doing this part-time. I like what I do and that does speak volumes, but I've also quit doing a lot of things I once enjoyed doing because of lack of time and money. I work longer hours now then I ever did working for someone else and though my shop is only 50 ft. behind my house, I see my wife less, unless she comes up there.


I would never tell anyone to not follow their dreams, but in my situation I was between jobs anyway, so I didn't walk away from security. If you have a job you could take leave from and return in a few months/year if things didn't work out and your financially secure enough to get by in those months without depending on anything coming in, then I'd say try it. If not I'd rethink what I was giving up.
Another thing to think about , is the economy, its not the best for knifemakers at this time. Its hard to eat a knife and with gas and food prices rising along with many job layoffs all over, peoples priorities have changed.
Plus the added competition of many baby boomers retireing and making knifemaking a hobby, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of custom knives.

I really don't want to rain on anyone parade, these are just a few things you might think about.

Good luck with your decision.

Bill
 
David, you will have to deal with collectors, if you go fulltime. Sorry, I couldn't resist :o

I started full time in 1991 with no money, no job and most of all, no debt. I made users in the $25 to $75 range and just worked up from there.

I wanted to make knives more than anything else and I needed to make money to buy groceries. I'm glad I did it.

It can be done but it's not an easy living. No insurance, no befits, no retirement, just make knives and go fishing till ya die :D

The key, is going in with no debt.
 
Hi David,

I spent about 10 years working my way into being a full time maker. I joined the Air Force straight out of high school, and had been dabbling in knives for most of my teens. I had never intended to make the military a career, but somehow I was at my 10 year mark before I realized it. I had a wife and a daughter, and knew that as long as I remained in the Air Force, I would have a steady paycheck, and medical care for them. Also at about that 10 year point, I got more serious about knifemaking. Thats when I started thinking about things. I realized that I only had 10 more years before I would be eligible to retire, and would still be a "young man" at age 40. I started setting goals and making plans. From experience, I knew that being a full time knifemaker would be a hit and miss proposition. The fact is that our income as knifemakers, is dependent on other people's disposable income. If they don't have it, then we don't get it!

I also noticed that everyday I would see people who where miserable with what they did to make a living, but most felt they were trapped into it, and I did not what to be like that. With all that in mind, I made a plan. I would do my last 10 years (which actually turned out to be 12), and along the way I would do what I could to set myself up to reach my goal of being a full time knifemaker. That included paying down bills to the point where my family and I could survive on my wife's salary, and my military retirement if necessary, and not creating any more bills that would push us past that limit. Also during that time I worked hard in the knife shop as much as I could, putting my self into as good of a position as possible in the market, and attended as many major knife shows as my job would allow. Upon retiring from the military, I literally took off my uniform one day, and walked into the knife shop the next morning as a full time knifemaker.

To directly answer your questions:
o How did you make the “switch”? What drove you to make that switch and when did you finally bite the bullet and jump in with both feet?
A: I planned for 12 years, built up my shop and clients, and did everything I could to place myself in a desirable position to make the switch.

o Was it a leap of faith or a sound evaluation of the business and market in comparison to your own skills and reception up to that point?
A: I would have to say a leap of faith more than anything, because if I had paid attention to what market was telling me, it would have never happened. I personally think that an actual "market analysis" can be a moot point with custom knives.....fact is that custom knives are a luxury, and although there will always be folks with disposable income, we are only a tiny segment of where that disposable income COULD be spent.

o Did you go “Half-Time” in a more serious way, such as switching from a fulltime job to a part-time job to see if you could supplement your previous salary with knifemaking?
A: I did. With about 5-7 years left before being eligible to retire for the military, that job was getting the way of my knifemaking. I nearly burned myself out on several occasions because I would work all day at the Air Base, then come home and put in another 6-8 hours EVERY night in the shop.

 o Did you conduct a full business and market analysis, or simply say “F-It, I’m doing this. Period.”
A: Yes and no. I did build myself a business plan, but the market analysis was tough for me.... as I mentioned above, the custom knife market a moving target, based on disposable incomes, with the exception of a fairly exclusive group of people who actually budget for knife purchases. That group is a very small percentage of possible clients, and the competition for them is very keen. I also factored in backup plans, and to that end, during the last half of my military career, I accumulated as many marketable skills as possible. I am a universally licensed HVAC tech, Nationally certified crane operator, achieved degrees in both Industrial Security and Personnel Management, and also have a background in Police work. Those were all just in case I fell flat on may face as a Bladesmith/Knifemaker, I would have options to fall back on. Thank the Lord that I have been what I consider successful (so far), and have not had to utilize any of those backups.

My advice to anyone who is contemplating going into knifemaking on a full time basis is this: Put yourself in a position where you can survive without full dependence on what you make in your shop. Its a very difficult way to make a full time living, especially if its your sole source of income. If your going to be worried about bringing in enough to keep the family fed, and the bills paid, then it will become "a job", you'll loose the zeal for it, and it will no longer be fun. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, doing something I love was the major factor in becoming a full time maker in the first place, and I certainly did/do not want to ruin it by making it toil.
 
David, With the economy heading south very rapidly the day job would be best if held onto. I like Bill Buxton worked as a carpenter for at least 30 years. A job I did mainly for the paycheck and the insurance. As just about anyone can tell you in the construction trades you were off just about as much as you worked. Knifemaking filled that downtime gap. I've been full time about 7 years now. 1 or those 7 years I actually produced a fare amount of sales. Bladesmithing is a great hobby but if I were your age I'd depend on another job for a more steady income. Use the bladesmithing as recreation.
 
Just as in any self-employed bidness, ya gotta discipline yerself. It is tough getting outta the rut induced by working for someone else and collecting a steady check and receiving those bennies. It can be done but takes some change.
20 some yrs ago I moved to a more rural area , started a small autobody shop and did whatever needed done. Some days I painted Cadillacs and some days Farmalls. Made knives when the mood struck me. I changed my thinking to where I would do whateve r I needed to to feed out 4 kids. If the freezer was empty, I went and brought meat home. Did what was necessary. And left the rigid thinking behind.
I have 2 friends who are now trying the fulltime route , without changing their lifestyle and I fear for their burnout.
Don is right on with the no debt idea. It's a killwer both business -wise and to yerself.
jmo bruce godlesky/birdog
 
I REALLY appreciate the comments thus far. It is no secret or surprise that knifemaking is not an easy, dependable, or secure profession. I also know that a passion can quickly become a hassle when you are forced to do it rather than doing it because you want to do it.

I think this would be easier if I didnt have a decent paying job, to be honest. I currently make enough to stay happy and pay the bills, and that says alot, and I don't discredit that. I don't want to replace a personal dissatisfaction with my profession path with a huge amount of stress over paying the bills at all!

I think part of my problem is that my current job and knifemaking are about as polar opposites as you can get. I work supervising a techincal data group, parsing XML and SGML feeds and conducting database management for a huge digital publishing company. "I'd rather be fishing" obviously isn't enough reason to uproot a secure job, but "I feel I should be fishing" is a different thought....

I think I am going to begin one way or another by simply forcing shop time after work as if it were a part time second job that I was required to report to, and really start tracking everything, and only then will I begin to get a feel for what it would be like to even approach considering going down another path....

I suppose this underlines that knifemakers must be businessmen, but they are probably more akin to an artist in terms of how to plan a business that depends on others' "flex cash." We all know the romanticized image of a starving artist is much more bleak when you are the one starving.
 
David Schott said:
I suppose this underlines that knifemakers must be businessmen, but they are probably more akin to an artist in terms of how to plan a business that depends on others' "flex cash." We all know the romanticized image of a starving artist is much more bleak when you are the one starving.
Click to expand...

I currently have 4 dollars in my wallet and an empty bank account until my customers pick up the work I currently have cooking in my burnout kiln. Fortunately my wife still has her job.
If you have the luxury of a secure job use that to build yourself a second job as a knifemaker (or whatever gives you satisfaction) If you are destined to become a fulltime knifemaker, let it happen when your backorders dictate it.

-Page
 
David Schott said:
I suppose this underlines that knifemakers must be businessmen, but they are probably more akin to an artist in terms of how to plan a business that depends on others' "flex cash." We all know the romanticized image of a starving artist is much more bleak when you are the one starving.
Click to expand...

That's a very good insight. A couple of examples may help:

I have a friend who was, IMHO, one of the most gifted and creative game designers in the early days of role playing and fantasy board games. He
started a company (which still exists today) and discovered that all his time
was spent on business aspects and he got to do almost no gaming.

Another couple of friends are both custom jewelers.

One is very talented in several mediums, we have quite a collection of her work and know several other's who do as well. In metals she does things like cast three different colors of gold into one piece with successive castings. She has spent most of the time I've known her barely surviving day to day with bill piling up. It's only better now because her new husband has a day job.

The second friend has been in the business for less time (about 10 years) but has a couple of employees and seems to be surviving just fine. She's also branched out into dealing in semi-precious stones of many kinds. While she creates stunning individual pieces, she also makes and stocks less expensive selections made with stock bezels etc.

Two different people, both artists, but one of them has a much better grasp of business.
 
For the most part I've been a full time knifemaker, part time knifemaking teacher my whole adult life. The teaching came a little later of course. When I was starting out, I had a few odd part time jobs here and there to help keep afloat. I think I basically said F-it, this is what I'm going to do... I expanded my shop and tooling for a while, wasn't happy with how that went, then decided to go the low overhead route. I'm happy with the way it is now. I enjoy more freedom than most folks. There's people who make way more money than I do, but would give their left nut to enjoy my lifestyle.

If I had it all to do over, I wouldn't change a thing. :)
 
I haven't been a full time maker long at all but for what it's worth here's my experience. I was a press technician for about seven years building knives on the side. At a few points in the last couple years I made almost as much making knives as I did my fulltime job. So when the factory I worked for laid me off I made knives while looking for a job and did allright. I did find another job in car sales at sixty plus hours a week basically commission only. In alot of ways it was like knifemaking, long hours and if you sold you did well and if you didn't sell you starved. I was still selling knives on the side and the whole time I was doing the sales job I was down sizing my bills at home. There were many weeks where I did as well making knives as I did selling cars and after many long talks with my wife who is very successful and happy with her carreer we decided to take the plunge. It' been hard no doubt about it but I'm doing what I love and enjoy. I sincerely wish I had done this sooner.There are things that we do without but I honestly don't miss them. Without my wife to support me through this and actively trying to downsize our bills I would never have been a knifemaker. We do have a buisiness plan for where we'd like to be in the future and how to get there but it all depends on the buisiness. Just like anything else in life things change and either you roll with the punches or you get knocked out. I'm one of those guys that at the end of the road I don't want to sit back and wonder if I should have taken that chance.

Don
 
I am in the "great wife low bills lots of sacrifices group". I made so little in my old job and save so much money by not driving to work every day that quitting was like getting a raise. The job I left would take me back and give me a raise if I decide to go back. I do odd jobs and ironwork besides making knives and I am doing ok. Only because I am fine living on a very low income:)

IMHO Get tools make a plan and figure out what you can live without. Work on making knives as much as you can and then reavaluate where you want to be.
Also talk to your soon to be wife. How brave and tuff is she? :)
One final note I have no kids and if I did have kids there is no way I could do what I do!
 
Just remember one thing... Don't get too many irons in your fire!!!

What I mean is this. For all my life until Feb. of 2000 I had milked cows on the family farm. Dad had gotten cancer, Mom has had both knees replaced, and I was forced to decide rather to keep the cattle or sell. I had been making knives part time since 1989. We decided to sell the cows and buy beef. I went full time.

Fantastic! Finally had went full time with my passion-knifemaking! After 6 months of full time knifemaking I had the chance to take a job at a local propane company. I took the job thinking I could still make knives part-time. After a couple of years the knives were made less until I wasn't out in the shop at all any more.

Then Dad passed away and I was needed to stay at home all the time to help run the farm and beef cattle with my Mom. She really needed me. The wife and I talked about it and I quit the day job and opened up a garment printing business to help pay the bills until I got reestablished making knives again.

I am also a pastor of a small local church, captain of the local volunteer fire department, and still have the 400+ acre cattle farm to run. Plus I have my daughter in college.

Sometimes when you work for yourself you can get too much going just to try and pay the bills and before you know it you have too many irons in the fire.

Would I change? No. But I have never been able to work for anyone else except family very well. I turn 40 this year and the wife says I'm already a cranky old man!!!!

I've said all this to tell you this.... Do what YOU feel YOU need to do to take care of YOUR situation. Just be aware that it doesn't always turn out as easy as you might expect but if you are willing to sacrifice to make it work and you keep a good outlook on things you will be able to sleep well at night.

Good luck!
 
the one bit of advice I can offer you about being a professional craftsman is this
"if your going to be your own boss you've got to be the toughest boss you've ever worked for, its VERY easy to slack, don't .... ever.
 
We did everything opposite of the esteemed Mr. Caffrey!!!!!!! BTW, sending you a hug, Ed!!


We did the "to heck with it we only live once, its just money, medical insurance, security...who needs it,lets just jump in with all the faith of a couple of fools and see what happens, because as long as we have each other, we can conquer anything, and God will see us through, as He has always blessed us in the past " plan. (We put God on some overtime hours, I can assure you!):D

whether or not we are making it, is up for debate.:cool:


I will say this, our plan is not for the weak or timid. I honestly DO NOT recommend it, in any shape or form. And if there is a significant other involved, she better have some stones to stand by you, because our plan will surly test the relationship!!

Tanya Begg

On the flip side, like a couple of idiots, God takes care of drunks and fools...and as we have qualifications on both counts......I'd go through it all again......I think.:o
 
tntbegg said:
We did everything opposite of the esteemed Mr. Caffrey!!!!!!! BTW, sending you a hug, Ed!!


We did the "to heck with it we only live once, its just money, medical insurance, security...who needs it,lets just jump in with all the faith of a couple of fools and see what happens, because as long as we have each other, we can conquer anything, and God will see us through, as He has always blessed us in the past " plan. (We put God on some overtime hours, I can assure you!):D

whether or not we are making it, is up for debate.:cool:


I will say this, our plan is not for the weak or timid. I honestly DO NOT recommend it, in any shape or form. And if there is a significant other involved, she better have some stones to stand by you, because our plan will surly test the relationship!!

Tanya Begg

On the flip side, like a couple of idiots, God takes care of drunks and fools...and as we have qualifications on both counts......I'd go through it all again......I think.:o
Click to expand...

Tanya speaks truth!

Amen and amen!

God always keeps His word and takes care of His flock!

You go girl! :)
 
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