Fun with Atlatls!

[ndoghouse]

ndog, you were lucky too. i've heard of dogs spearing themselves on branches while chasing stuff thru woods, or when tripping carrying a long stick. not nice.

Yeah that scenario never crossed my mind. It could have been much worse if she had a different trajectory tho. Glad the dart was flat on the back. Maybe she needs a Kevlar vest

No head on that snake Mr. B! Your good. There are such things as two headed snakes you know? Kinda bummer tho if you want it for its skin. Makes ya feel like you got ripped off a skin.

 

[davidf99]

Excuse me if this question has been asked and answered earlier. Why do they call them darts? And who made the decision to call them darts? With all that length, they look to me like spears. Dart is such a diminutive term for a weapon that probably took down mammoths in prehistoric times. Of course that would be with the arm of a neanderthal or cave-man behind it.

View attachment 653787

 

[ndoghouse]

Excuse me if this question has been asked and answered earlier. Why do they call them darts? And who made the decision to call them darts? With all that length, they look to me like spears. Dart is such a diminutive term for a weapon that probably took down mammoths in prehistoric times. Of course that would be with the arm of a neanderthal or cave-man behind it.

View attachment 653787

HE HE!!! I Love Larsons work! Man he was nuts! Uh thats a great question I have been asking myself the same. You dont "throw" them either. You "cast" them. WTF??? Ill see if I can find the answer to that. Im realizing there are lots of differences between say a Javelin without fletching, an arrow , a dart, and a sharp stick for der eye poken. Im on it. Back to ya later on that one.

Dart,bait-cast
Arrow-shoot
Bullet-fire
B*tch, horseshoes, washers-pitch
Spear,stone,javelin-throw
??? Hmmm? I wonder? I bet Kronck would know?


oh! Almost forgot:

WHOOOOHOOOO!!!!! I just broke my record! I got a cast of 261'11"!!! Dang near on the neighbors neighbors property. Guess im gonna have to move my course the length of the property instead of the width. That would give me 700 feet to grow into. Cant throw anything that far without black powder

 

[kronckew]

waxing pedantic:

the aztecs called them "Tlacochtli", a rose by any other name.... have no idea why 'dart' is used you could call them 'freds' if you want, and someone else agrees to use it too... 'dart' is more descriptive if you engage in the great britiush pub sport. it's a name agreed on by users that has gained momentum, ... they are essentially a light javelin with fletching. a javelin is a light spear used for throwing. a spear is a pole-arm used for stabbing swordsmen who you do not want to get close. a pike is a long spear used in block formations or shiltrons, like the old greek phalanx. a sarissa is a long pike. a lance is a longish spear carried by horsemen.

the romans used heavy pilum (javelins or throwing spears) up until about the end of the second century a.d., then they used 'plumbatum', essentially a weighted lawn dart with a barbed point about 2 ft. long, the dart was weighted to hit harder with a blob of lead cast on the front. latin for lead is plumbum, hence the name, and as they used lead pipes, why we call our water transportation engineers 'plumbers'*. the early romans used a 7ft.-ish heavy spear called a 'hasta' for stabbing, then stopped carrying them in favour of the pilum and gladius. they did have them available if they were facing a lot of horsemen. used like pikes, rarely thrown.

plumbatum


note that is how they held them for throwing underhand for long range, the leather flights would straighten them out. modern athletes throwing the javelin found they could throw them much further by grasping near the butt end and spinning like a hammer thrower then releasing. went so far the method was outlawed, as are grooved javelin, streamlined shapes, special coatings, etc. because they want to keep the max range within the limits of the tracks so they don't accidentally skewer a runner.

for your range tests: idea: the flights help straighten the darts flight, but too big they add drag, try flights that are longer and shorter rather than taller to cut drag. then shorten them till you have the bare minimum fletching. two flights instead of three, the third is not needed at range.

*- roman 'plumbers' brought water into the houses of the rich and famous, the poor made do with community fountains. they were smart enough to use valves at the household end, to turn the water on/off. what we now call faucets or taps, spigots. they also used flush toilets, again the common people used communal toilets without stalls, with flowing water underneath to flush away waste so they could discuss business and gossip with the person eliminating next to you. no modesty at all. they even used pictures of erect male genetalia to point the way to the local brothels..

...and now for something completely different - sort of - the swiss arrow:
[video=youtube;uCyKrQDFA28]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCyKrQDFA28[/video]

 

[ndoghouse]

That leaded dart is cool as heck! Looks like a medieval lawn dart. Might have to try to make one of them! Ive seen that video of the swiss dart. I like it. Thats that TV dude aint it? I thought about making a few with some broken atlatl darts.

 

[Scara]

note that is how they held them for throwing underhand for long range, the leather flights would straighten them out. modern athletes throwing the javelin found they could throw them much further by grasping near the butt end and spinning like a hammer thrower then releasing. went so far the method was outlawed, as are grooved javelin, streamlined shapes, special coatings, etc. because they want to keep the max range within the limits of the tracks so they don't accidentally skewer a runner.

That brings back the memory of the first time I saw someone throw a javelin close up. I was at my college's fieldhouse during a workout, and I was stretching in an annex. I think I was doing a standard calf stretch, with my head pointed more towards the track. All of a sudden I hear this loud buzzing noise. Really shocking noise, sounded like the almost cliche angry bees noise. Really, really shocking sound. Then I looked and saw a javelin on the ground. Turns out the big blue floor-to-ceiling curtain that hangs in that fieldhouse is so shot-putters and javelin can have a target to throw at. It eats up all the javelin's momentum and the thing just falls to the floor, harmless. I was kind of annoyed for a moment, because I was sort of downrange of the thrower, but I was a good 45 degrees to the right of his point of aim, so I brushed it off. A javelin in flight makes a really scary noise.

I've been curious about the plumbata. First time I heard about them was when I read De Re Militari by Vegetius. Interesting stuff. Any idea what kind of range they had?

 

[kronckew]

...

I've been curious about the plumbata. First time I heard about them was when I read De Re Militari by Vegetius. Interesting stuff. Any idea what kind of range they had?

never thrown one myself. seen videos on youtube on how to make them.

from a link found googling : HERE
=======================
There has been much debate about the range of these weapons and just how exactly they were used. While it is hard to be definite about such a subject I’ve thrown hundreds of these darts, of various weights and sizes and there are some simple rules that apply.

For distance darts must be thrown under arm. In terms of weight Comitatus darts seem to be between 60-120g (2-4oz). Our standard short dart weighing around 120g achieves distance of around 80m. Those of 60g struggle to reach such a distance. Those of 170g or even 200g (6 or 7oz) can reach out to a respectable 70m, but do have great penetrative power. If you increase the length of the dart, in my experience the distance thrown actually reduces, since while the distance travelled by the head during the throwing motion is increased the speed of the throw is much reduced. Longer versions get progressively heavier with length. An over arm throw, even when assisted by a thong lopped around the end of the dart, will give the dart a greater distance of up to 60m with a very light head. But a short dart well thrown easily can exceed such a throw. I prefer light feathered fletchings to wooden versions in order to maximise the distance thrown. Wearing armour or carrying shields do not seem to reduce the range of the dart, and a dart can be thrown every two or three seconds. For displays it is important to maintain a high rate of “fire”, and it is possible to throw two light darts instead of one heavy one. To look impressive we need to ensure that darts are delivered rapidly and accurately on to the target area.

A staff sling can increase the range of the dart by 10-20m if you get a clean release. It sometimes works! But the staff sling is a great delivery system, so go out and try it with a blunt dart.

=======================

 

[ndoghouse]

Thats a long dang ways to throw a dart by hand! Man they must have some Popeye arms

Heres some distances and averages from a few days ago. Without the atlatl I dont think I could throw these darts more than 100 feet. Ill have to try it one day.

dart # distance feet AVE
7 238 233 222 237 249 235.8
5 235 232 213 226.7
8 226 203 214 262 226.3
4 216 230 220 222.0
3 210 214 200 208.0
6 214 200 200 204.7
1 185 175 185 181.7
2 160 195 175 176.7

Heres the specs before I updated them yesterday:
Dart # 1 .....2 .....3 .....4..... 5 .....6..... 7.....8.
weight (oz.) 4.9 6.2 4.9 5.4 4.2 5.5 4.7 4.5


On average they are around 5 ounces and I can only toss them average 225' or so. I wonder what they did with an atlatl? Thats some serious power! If you were good enough the old guys could probably hit a mastodon at 200' no problem. They apparently hunted in packs like wolves tho. They would be in packs of six or eight and were able to throw at least a few darts each. Think about the efficiency. Six to eight men could bring home a few thousand pounds of meat on one hunting trip! That would be hard to do nowadays since we aint got no dang mastodons left

 

[kronckew]

gawd! think of all that mastodon jerky. yum!

they usually cheated tho, stampeded a herd of masties over a cliff. jerky as much as possible & leave the rest for scavengers. less risk to the cavemen.

that's also why most other large mammals were extinct in north america, the injuns were not the great keepers of the ecology the greenies (and the injuns) would like you to believe.
much easier to kill a whole herd by stampeding them bison over a cliff. more waste, but there were millions of them. us westerners just sped up the process a bit.

anyhoo, that was why the masties went extinct, not atlatls.

 

[Bawanna]

I sometimes think my boss is a mastodon, she's certainly large enough.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

My brother in law got one for me, a kit. Had a lot of fun with it, I need to get back over to his house.

A great movie that features the atlatl prominently is 13TH Warrior. Also, Quest for Fire.

 

[kronckew]

I sometimes think my boss is a mastodon, she's certainly large enough.

can you drive him/her off a cliff? if not the atlatl should be perfect. boss jerky would likely be frowned on tho. never heard of pork jerky.

don't recall it being used in the 13th warrior, but i've only watched the film a dozen times or so. was it the fire-vurm tribesmen?

 

[ndoghouse]

My brother in law got one for me, a kit. Had a lot of fun with it, I need to get back over to his house.

A great movie that features the atlatl prominently is 13TH Warrior. Also, Quest for Fire.

I saw Quest for Fire a long long time ago. Cretaceous I think it was? Great movie as I recall. Ill have to watch it again. I havent seen 13th Warrior. Ill check it out! Im not much for movies but I do like the old good ones.
I may go try for a new record today. This is the first day its been under 102 degrees in a few months it seems. Maybe its smoke? Hmmm. Been so long since i seen a cloud.

 

[Bawanna]

can you drive him/her off a cliff? if not the atlatl should be perfect. boss jerky would likely be frowned on tho. never heard of pork jerky.

don't recall it being used in the 13th warrior, but i've only watched the film a dozen times or so. was it the fire-vurm tribesmen?

Like minds I reckon, that's the first thing I thunk of reading this, where's a good handy cliff. Would have to be where a car could get close. She walks across the office and I swear she's gonna keel right over, maybe I don't need a cliff just a little more time.

I wish no ill upon anyone, well maybe a few in the past but I actually feel sorry for her. She needs an intervention, or a good cliff.

 

[davidf99]

I saw Quest for Fire a long long time ago. Cretaceous I think it was? Great movie as I recall. Ill have to watch it again. I havent seen 13th Warrior. Ill check it out! Im not much for movies but I do like the old good ones....

I really like "Quest for Fire," but It's more a speculative medley of possible prehistoric peoples, rather than an attempt at historical (or prehistorical) accuracy. I can't say much more about it without spoiling some of the plot twists for those who haven't seen it. One of the lead characters is played by the actor, Ron Perlman, who in many of his roles looks like he must have more than the average amount of neanderthal DNA. However, cretaceous is off by about 60 million years or so. The cretaceous period ended (with a mass extinction) about 65 million years ago. Back then, our ancestors were probably tiny rodent-like critters digging burrows in the ground and trying to avoid getting stepped on by dinosaurs. And there were no mammoths, saber tooth tigers or any large mammals. They had to evolve later to avoid being eaten by the dinosaurs.

"The Thirteen Warrior" is a huge favorite of mine. Not just for the action aspects, which are great, but the culture clash between the main character (and narrator), an Arab poet and courtier who becomes a warrior, and the Viking raiding party that takes him in. The story is based on the epic saga of Beowulf, or more precisely on Michael Crichton's book with the terrible title, "Eaters of the Dead," which is loosely based on the Beowulf story.

 

[kronckew]

the 13th warrior, full movie on youtube, and Ahmad ibn Fadlan was a real person who actually made and wrote about his journey to russia and his experiences with the eastern vikings of the area. In 922 AD, an Arab envoy from Baghdad named Ibn Fadlan encountered a party of Viking traders on the upper reaches of the Volga River. In his subsequent report on his mission he gave a meticulous and astonishingly objective description of Viking customs, dress, table manners, religion and sexual practices, as well as the only eyewitness account ever written of a Viking ship cremation. you can still buy his book on amazon HERE.

Between the ninth and fourteenth centuries, Arab travellers such as Ibn Fadlan journeyed widely and frequently into the far north, crossing territories that now include Russia, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Their fascinating accounts describe how the numerous tribes and peoples they encountered traded furs, paid tribute and waged wars. This accessible new translation offers an illuminating insight into the world of the Arab geographers, and the medieval lands of the far north.

for bawanna:

[video=youtube;iK0-76FChfk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK0-76FChfk[/video]

worth watching the full movie. (with morgan freeman & angelina jolie)

 

[ndoghouse]

Thanks Kronck! Ill have to watch that. Sounds interesting!

 

[Bawanna]

the 13th warrior, full movie on youtube, and Ahmad ibn Fadlan was a real person who actually made and wrote about his journey to russia and his experiences with the eastern vikings of the area. In 922 AD, an Arab envoy from Baghdad named Ibn Fadlan encountered a party of Viking traders on the upper reaches of the Volga River. In his subsequent report on his mission he gave a meticulous and astonishingly objective description of Viking customs, dress, table manners, religion and sexual practices, as well as the only eyewitness account ever written of a Viking ship cremation. you can still buy his book on amazon HERE.

Between the ninth and fourteenth centuries, Arab travellers such as Ibn Fadlan journeyed widely and frequently into the far north, crossing territories that now include Russia, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Their fascinating accounts describe how the numerous tribes and peoples they encountered traded furs, paid tribute and waged wars. This accessible new translation offers an illuminating insight into the world of the Arab geographers, and the medieval lands of the far north.

for bawanna:

[video=youtube;iK0-76FChfk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK0-76FChfk[/video]

worth watching the full movie. (with morgan freeman & angelina jolie)

Oh man, they made a movie about me! That's her except she's bigger and I'm far better looking than that guy.
Should have used Robert Duvall. Or maybe Steven Segall.

 

[kronckew]

steven seagull don't need to bend bullets around corners. he threatens his bullets with dire consequences if they dare miss.

he's let himself go tho.



hmm. reminds me of someone i posted earlier in a 4-wheeler.

 

[Dobe_1]

gawd! think of all that mastodon jerky. yum!

they usually cheated tho, stampeded a herd of masties over a cliff. jerky as much as possible & leave the rest for scavengers. less risk to the cavemen.

that's also why most other large mammals were extinct in north america, the injuns were not the great keepers of the ecology the greenies (and the injuns) would like you to believe.
much easier to kill a whole herd by stampeding them bison over a cliff. more waste, but there were millions of them. us westerners just sped up the process a bit.

anyhoo, that was why the masties went extinct, not atlatls.

Agreed


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