Future of traditionals?

Reminds me of the scene from Big Jake...

John Fain: Who are you?

Jake: Jacob McCandles.

John Fain: I thought you were dead.

Jake: Not hardly.
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I don't think the realm of old timey knives are doing as good as we would like, but not as bad as we might fear. Boker, Queen, Buck, Victorinox and Case are still around. Great Eastern and Canal Street are doing well, especially with their low production numbers.

The user, not the collector, is going to continue to buy Case, Buck and Victorinox. A certain knife superstore/museum will either do well selling junk, or implode.

A knife shop up the road about an hour or two in MD, has a very small slipjoint variety for sale. He told me that they just don't sell. He has a huge supply of William Henry, Chris Reeve and other high end one hand openers. He has Boker, Case and CRKT slipjoints, as well as a few Magnums, but they just don't move. However, when someone is looking for a work knife, they go for the Buck, Victorinox or Case he has in stock. Bare bones working knives. They're still hanging on.

I like my thin slipjoint slicers. They just work better. There's a reason Nessmuk carried three items into the woods. A belt knife, an axe and a stout moose type knife. I have drastically reduced the amount of one hand openers in my collection. I still like them and use them. Most of what I own and use these days are old designs. They work for a reason.
 
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jackknife said:
The problem with internet sales is, they cater to a very small part of the public. It's no longer worth the time and money for a retail public outlet like a store, stock items that don't sell quick, if at all. So knife displays have gone south, and the general public just does not perceive a need for a cutting tool in the pocket. The members of the esteemed liars circle of my youth have all gone to the front porch in the sky, and the new centurions don't have the same needs or wants.

To paraphrase the Marines, we're the few, the obsessed, the knife nuts.

Carl.
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Yes, but the internet is a great leveling tool for the small manufacturers. The only reason I learned about and/or obtained many of my knives was through the internet. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

I would never have seen or bought a: GEC, Queen, Svord, Opinel, Alox Victorinox, Terrio, Mora, Lloyd, TA Davidson……

The choices in Case, Buck, Victorinox, Boker would have been very limited.

The internet is probably more of a help than a hindrance to the popularity of the Traditional.
 
Traditionals need to keep up to date. Why don't manufacturers use more up to date steels?
I prefer traditional style knives, but 420 & 1095 don't compare with S35VN or 3V.
Fallkniven does so, but I can't think of another manufacturer who seriously tries. Just a limited edition now & then.
 
Woodrow F Call said:
Yes, but the internet is a great leveling tool for the small manufacturers. The only reason I learned about and/or obtained many of my knives was through the internet. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

I would never have seen or bought a: GEC, Queen, Svord, Opinel, Alox Victorinox, Terrio, Mora, Lloyd, TA Davidson……

The choices in Case, Buck, Victorinox, Boker would have been very limited.

The internet is probably more of a help than a hindrance to the popularity of the Traditional.
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Fully agreed. Given where I live, there are many brands I would never see if I had to just rely on local stores.

I'm not at all worried - in fact, at this point in time, I'm excited about the state of traditional knife making. There are so many great options to choose from.
 
silenthunterstudios said:
The user, not the collector, is going to continue to buy Case, Buck and Victorinox. A certain knife superstore/museum will either do well selling junk, or implode.

A knife shop up the road about an hour or two in MD, has a very small slipjoint variety for sale. He told me that they just don't sell. He has a huge supply of William Henry, Chris Reeve and other high end one hand openers. He has Boker, Case and CRKT slipjoints, as well as a few Magnums, but they just don't move. However, when someone is looking for a work knife, they go for the Buck, Victorinox or Case he has in stock. Bare bones working knives. They're still hanging on.
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This is an excellent point, I think.

We're probably wise to remember that "jack knife" was a term of derision. It meant cheap and poorly made or of ill repute. It was related to the term jack-leg, as in jack-leg preacher or jack-leg lawyer.

In this vein, I think the junk knives being sold in many hardware and big box stores fit squarely in the actual tradition of knife use among laborers, and not some overly romanticized marketing story of noble working men passing along heirloom quality pocket jewelry from generation to generation. If we can accept that a crappy tactical flipper in the pocket of a tradesman is about as (honestly) traditional as it gets, then I don't see knife culture disappearing. Better to say that knife culture is directly related to the cultures of labor, hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation; each of which has their own changing perspectives on knife use.

IMO, this splits "traditional" knives into 2 overlapping categories. The first are those that can compete with less expensive modern knives on price, durability and function. This pretty much means giving up on "fit and finish" and relying on automated production processes to make "good enough" knives in cost-effective manner. Victorinox/Wegner, Buck, Case, Opinel, Mora... these are your leaders here.

The second are what might be considered artistic homages to the craft of fine knives. These can command higher price points that can support higher levels of fit and finish and more extensive use of hand crafted production.
 
1095, while not my first choice, is still a good steel. If it is a deterrent for knife buyers, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I wish that Case and Buck would stop using 420 and just use 440C, I can't imagine the cost would be prohibitive. That said, I have not found anything wrong with Bucks 420HC, I just want a better steel. I do not like Case's SS, and will not buy a Case unless it is CV.

I don't think that the super steels would go well with slipjoint folders though. O1, D2, A2. Okay, no problem. 3V would be a stretch, as would any of the powder steels. The allure of the slipjoint is it's ability to develop a patina.
 
pinnah said:
... Better to say that knife culture is directly related to the cultures of labor, hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation; each of which has their own changing perspectives on knife use.
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I agree.

But speaking solely about hunting and fishing and whatnot I would say that even if the perspectives have changed the duties of the knife have not. A bear or a deer or an elk are pretty much today what they were in our grandparent's time. The same tools that did the job so magnificently back then work equally well today.

Hunting and fishing have succumbed to a brand of commercialism that really is ill suited for them and it shows up in what is peddled to the kids coming along nowadays. I'm going to be blunt here and hope the moderators don't kick me off site: A whole lot of what is being billed as 'outdoors knives' are uniquely ill suited to be anything of the sort. From back when I was a kid and watched a cousin bring a spanking new Rambo knife to deer camp I have watched the sporting equipment industry try and pound the square peg of tactical weaponry into the round hole of hunting and fishing.

Now it seems that even traditional hunting knives have succumbed and I see bar stock better suited to semi-truck frames being used as knife material. I suppose this is to accommodate 'battoning' which seems to be a mainstay of hunting knives now. I've have been hunting by myself and on my own since I was 13. At times in some fairly remote territory. I have endured freezing rain in the 20s that coated me from head to toe, howling snowstorms that battered me from dawn to dark, endured lonely ice box days on the stand that pulled every bit of heat right out of my body. And in all that time I have never had to baton a knife once. Not once.

I think humans have a tendency towards the 'what if' syndrome. I believe the outdoors industry uses this as a means to sell all kinds of knives that simply are a handicap. A good 3 to 4 inch full tang fixed blade is optional but does a good job for field dressing and skinning. A good trapper will take you through just about all of the normal processing and does well at skinning too. Not much room in there for stabbing or cutting concertina wire or whatnot.

Will
 
silenthunterstudios said:
The allure of the slipjoint is it's ability to develop a patina.
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Not for everyone.
I think a choice of steels is good, & putting a bit of life in the steel selection would widen the appeal of the type.
I have a few of Fallknivens lock back, open by a nail nick folders, in 3G laminated powder steel. They are very well made, & the steel is a good choice, it works well.

Case & GEC have tried, successfully, to liven up the market with a wide array of scale materials. I think a wider array of blade steels would have a similar effect, but on a different part of the population.
 
Material cover choices are going to be easier to provide, but different steels have some issues that are not as easy to deal with. Many of the "better" steels are harder on the tools used to make the knives.

I think that the average joe who just wants an care free knife is going to go with a Buck or maybe a Case if they want something pretty. I think most of the "traditional" crowd wants a carbon steel that will patina. As long as the group of people buying a knife like GEC remains small, I think they are not likely to change the steels they currently use. I don't think there is much demand. I think it's good they do offer a SS version of their patterns, even though they don't offer it as often or in as many patterns.
 
I showed my Case Texas Jack to someone once, they remarked about the blade looking dirty, I said it was a patina but that didn't seem to change their mind. Then they asked what the handle was made of, I said bone, they said eww and handed it back. This is the sad reality of traditional knives in todays day.
You can throw G10 scales on it and fancy new stainless steels and that might make it somewhat more appealing to them but it also puts it into the same category as the modern knives and I'm not sure they can compete in that market. Yes traditionals generally cut well but like has been mentioned people just aren't really using knives as much these days so they probably aren't going to even notice any improved cutting performance. They're going to be more concerned with whether it can be clipped to their pocket or opened one handed, or that it's really strong and can be used for self defense, and most people won't even consider a knife if it doesn't lock from what I've seen. Besides, the more you try to make traditional knives compete with modern knives, the more untraditional they get. What's traditional about say a trapper pattern with a lock, thumb stud, modern steel, g10 scales and a pocket clip? It's just not the same.
I think modern knives appeal to modern people, when the average joe looks at two knives nowadays, one a traditional pocket knife and the other some one handed tactical folder that is said to be in use by some special forces team or another, the "coolness" of the modern knife is probably going to appeal to them a lot more than the folksy traditionalism of the pocket knife. Maybe a part of the reason for that is that they don't have any association with traditional knives, they didn't grow up camping or fishing or whittling with ol' Uncle Tom, they grew up playing Call of Duty on their Xbox.
I hate to say it but I don't see how a traditional knife can survive without the traditions that made it what it is in the first place. There may be slight exceptions, people who are still growing up in a semi-traditional way but most of them are still influenced by popular media of today, like the cousin that brought a rambo knife to deer camp, he was still out there hunting but using what the media has shown him to be a good hunting knife instead of what he's learned from previous generations.
I think eventually it's just going to be brands like Rough Rider still around, cheap knives with the resemblance of traditional knives but lacking the heritage, being sold to people who just think old timey stuff is neat, like people who buy vinyl records. Maybe companies like GEC will remain as well, selling almost exclusively to collectors, and Victorinox simply because they're more multitools than knives but I think it's probably only a matter of time before the traditional pocket knife becomes a relic of the past and not a knife choice to be considered for actual use. Either that or it will morph into something that wouldn't even be recognizable as a traditional knife.
 
So many good points raised in this thread, and I think they are all accurate observations, even those that seem contrary to each other. There are many trends - social, economic, technological, and demographic - that are changing the world, and the small piece of it that is traditional knifemaking is of course being affected.

While many of the big players may be negatively affected, forced to change their business models, or go the way of Schrade and others, this is an exciting time of opportunity for the smaller shops like GEC and Tuna Valley, among others. The ubiquity of the Internet and social media such as this forum allow for small companies and individual craftspeople to gain national exposure and distribution without the need for hugely expensive distribution and marketing systems.

This opens the way for a wider variety of choices in products and a higher quality of offerings than those provided based on the needs of a larger corporate entity's profit margins. Smaller companies are much more responsive to the customers' suggestions and requests not only because they have to be but because there is a genuine partnership between them.

It reminds me of my experiences with looking for leather handgun holsters recently. I was in law enforcement in the 70s - 90s, and when you needed a holster you went to one of three or four big manufacturers and had multiple choices for pretty much any make and model. Fast forward to 2010 when I took a renewed interest in handguns after 20 years of ignoring them. As I went looking for a holster, everything had gone to ballistic nylon and plastic, and the big manufacturers I had been used to were either gone, merged into mega-corporations, or had a much diminished product line.

But through participating in Internet forums I discovered that the changes in that industry had opened the doors for dozens of craftsmen creating wonderful products at competitive prices who were all doing so well that their products were often back ordered for months. And when you ordered from them, you often got a response directly from the person actually making your product, and maybe you chatted directly with him or her on an Internet forum like this one, and knew them on a first name basis.

We tend to see that a lot here in the world of traditional knives, at least with some of the smaller companies and on-line vendors, and I don't see that going away, but probably expanding. So will the overall volume of traditional folder sales tend to drop or be manufactured more globally for lower costs? Yes. Will there still be a place for traditional knives in the enthusiast/collector/user market? Absolutely!

By the way, the buggy-whip industry is still alive! http://www.buggy-whips.com/ (though not at that web site!)
 
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Slipjoints have always been around and always will be! They might sale good this year and not sale as good the next year. But they will always be for sale!...imho.

Jason
 
mtangent said:
Traditionals need to keep up to date. Why don't manufacturers use more up to date steels?
I prefer traditional style knives, but 420 & 1095 don't compare with S35VN or 3V.
Fallkniven does so, but I can't think of another manufacturer who seriously tries. Just a limited edition now & then.
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Im with you on the choice of steels. I do love 1095 although I would like for most trad manufacturers to harden it a bit more. I think 55rc is what I have read that GEC does. 1095 will do 58-60 easily. Also, for stainless, as far as Im concerned if it isnt at the very least 440C its pot metal. Really, S30V is ubiquitous anymore as well as 154CM. So it raises the price a litte, its much better than this stuff they are using now.
 
A hundred years from now, all knife owners will have to register their knives. Locking knives will be illegal, as will autos and blades over 3". Therefore, we could see a resurgence of traditional slip joints. My crystal ball sees further into the future, but that would be telling :) Spoilers!
 
akadave2 said:
Im with you on the choice of steels. I do love 1095 although I would like for most trad manufacturers to harden it a bit more. I think 55rc is what I have read that GEC does. 1095 will do 58-60 easily. Also, for stainless, as far as Im concerned if it isnt at the very least 440C its pot metal. Really, S30V is ubiquitous anymore as well as 154CM. So it raises the price a litte, its much better than this stuff they are using now.
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I have to correct you on this segment in red.

I believe its 57-59. I called and made a thread a while back I will search for it...

Kevin

ETA http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/909314-Great-Eastern-Cutlery-Heat-Treat-RC-Rating
 
Hello all,
Hopefully I won't step on too many toes,carry on too long or repeat all of what has been said above but like LeatherMan I too am of the mall ninja generation but prefer traditional knives to any of the one hand locking knives I own. I feel the issue,if you will,comes from a lack of knowledge or a failure to actually understand knives. I'm reminded of two stories by jackknife; "Hard Use Teeth" and "It's a Knife Bonehead!". The first because the young boy honestly captures the ideas most have towards knives today and the second because if someone taught about knives in such a tender way as jackknifes father I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It has been my experience that many carry large knives,made of various "super steels" because they are advertised as being all you'll need when you walk out the door. It's a screwdriver,a pry bar,a glass breaker,etc. You can do what you want to this thing and you'll never break it. Despite the fact that anyone properly schooled knows never to use a knife for any of the above except in perhaps the MOST dire of situations. A pocket knife,even among many of the younger enthusiasts,is no longer a simple cutting tool. In their eyes it must be capable of much more.

That being said I look back at my own knife choices over the years and believe that burnside is exactly right. It's up to those who know better to mentor the younger generations,as in most things,and I feel confident in saying that the task is being accomplished well. For all the glamour the new knives have there is something to be said for knife designs that simply won't die. I truly doubt they're going anywhere.
 
If you want to know what I really think I will put it out there. I know there are plenty of folks that buy modern knives for GREAT reasons. I have a TON myself. More than my traditional knives actually. Here is what I think. I think traditional knives have a bad rap as drawer knives that rust and dull when they cut butter out in the rain. This could be due to the fact that you have workers that can not afford the higher end traditional knives and they get a cheap one that really does dull like "pot metal". There is also the "old man" image. I know this is why my brother carries the sebenza I gave him and does not really like my traditionals. Well, aside from a few. So when I think of this you have guys that buy cheap traditional knives that will not hold an edge or they just hear that because it can be true... they go out and look at walmart for "super" steel moderns in their price range. I know quite a few folks that buy one knife with the most super dooper steel because they don't know how to sharpen and they hope it holds an edge forever and ever until they send it back to the manufacturer.

If you get a good modern and a good traditional they can compare okay. There will always be pros and cons. The other day I watched a guy I work with pull out his all black super serrated tanto walmart special and try to cut a simple rope to tie up ladders. This guy is late 40's and NOT a mall ninja. He tried the serrations and they just got stuck. Hacked away with the blade and nothing. I grabbed my machete out of the back of my truck and said try this. He did and when it went through without ANY noticeable pressure or movement his eyes about popped out of his head and he said he could NOT own something like that. Hmmm, just some ole' cheap 1095 under 20 dollars.

Kevin
 
In the rare cases where I have met someone who likes and carries traditional slip joints, their interest has almost always been exclusively centered around vintage slip joints rather than new ones. Even when they are into traditional knives, it is a HUGE stretch to see if they know about Great Eastern Cutlery or Queen.

You really cant judge a book by its cover any more either. I have met older folksy types who preferred Zero Tolerance and Benchmade as well as young 20 year-olds wearing basketball jerseys and backwards caps who carry vintage Schrades.:eek::D
 
black mamba said:
I think there will be a hard core of traditionalists for the forseeable future, but we're definitely a dwindling number.
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I agree, there will be. But yes, it's a constant struggle of numbers vs profit... that's why we have to keep introducing people to our perspective! Help other people learn to like good, American-made, traditional pocket knives! Makes me happy when I give someone a nice one, a Schatt or a GEC as their first 'real' pocket knife, and then I see them using it every time I see them afterward... I know that some of you other guys do that too. :)
(I think that now, for example, in my circle of friends & acquaintances, there are at least 4 guys who know about GEC and have an interest in their product line, who don't browse the internet for pocket knives like we do. That should help, in some small way, to perpetuate the existence of this market that we enjoy...)
 
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As long as there is the internets and google machines, and online retailers, auction sites and forums, I believe there will be an interest and a market for traditional knives. Getting some young 'uns interested can't hurt either ;)
 
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