Future of traditionals?

[zippofan]

When I bring up the topic of knives with my Scouts, I note that the majority of them have locking, single blade folders. Most often the younger guys have the "gas station" variety, some sort of Buck style lockback ripoff of varying sizes, with no-name steel and tang stamp. When I do our yearly retraining about knife safety, I notice the older guys will have something a step up, usually a Kershaw from Wal-Mart 'cause they were on sale. None, repeat, none of my guys has a multi bladed traditional knife, except for the ones who got one of the Rough Rider Camp knives that I put in the Christmas party grab bag, or the one Scout who received a Swiss Army knife courtesy of Sitflyer (I'm leaving my sons out of this because they have multiples, but they're the exception and their my kids so of course they have good knives ).

I make it a priority to emphasize safety, and remind these guys that the lock is no better than their common sense, and a slipjoint can be every bit as safe when handled correctly. Unfortunately, I have found myself undermined by well meaning but ignorant parents, who have told me that non locking knives are unsafe. Since I regularly carry both, and have pointed it out, they've chosen to concentrate on the locking Buck that I have in a belt sheath rather than the Schatt and Morgan in my pocket.

I continue to emphasize the safety aspect, like the time I caught a Scout using a junky gas station folder as a prybar. I took it off him and gave it to his father. Not long after, dad gave it back to him and sure enough the boy got hurt. Somehow that ended up as my fault, but I digress. I use that example and others to remind the guys that regardless of the type or brand name (big with the older guys), it's how you use it and what you use it for that is important. Like the time a guy was using his assisted opener to try to cut pepperoni and cheese. He was getting frustrated, so I handed him my Case wharncliffe trapper to finish. After he was done, he couldn't help but observe how much faster the Case did the job, and he didn't get hurt with such an "unsafe" (his father's words) knife. Funny, but when I put an Opinel in this year's Christmas grab bag, he got it and now carries it with him to all our events...

I'll continue to teach the guys about knife safety, in fact we're due with the beginning of camping season. The ones who pay attention might get it, maybe someday. But ultimately they aren't the market that GEC, Queen/S&M and Canal Street are going for. To them and their parents, 50 bucks for a knife is completely out of the question, even the $30 BSA branded Swiss Army knives are too much. But they wouldn't be against a Rough Rider priced slipjoint, so I'll keep putting them in the Christmas grab bag.

 

[knarfeng]

Traditionals need to keep up to date. Why don't manufacturers use more up to date steels?
I prefer traditional style knives, but 420 & 1095 don't compare with S35VN or 3V.
Fallkniven does so, but I can't think of another manufacturer who seriously tries. Just a limited edition now & then.

Try Queen's D2. D2 will hold an edge better than S35VN.

CPM 3V has superior toughness, but I cannot imagine any usage of a traditional pocket knife in which a tough steel is an advantage. Why could you possibly want that alloy in a pocket knife?

1095, while not my first choice, is still a good steel. If it is a deterrent for knife buyers, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

I wish that Case and Buck would stop using 420 and just use 440C, I can't imagine the cost would be prohibitive. That said, I have not found anything wrong with Bucks 420HC, I just want a better steel. I do not like Case's SS, and will not buy a Case unless it is CV.

I don't think that the super steels would go well with slipjoint folders though. O1, D2, A2. Okay, no problem. 3V would be a stretch, as would any of the powder steels. The allure of the slipjoint is it's ability to develop a patina.

The difference in production costs associated with switching from 420HC to 440C would be huge. Buck fine blanks 420HC. You cannot fine blank 440C. Fine blanking is a very fast, very low cost process. Moreover, while the average knife knut thinks nothing of sharpening a blade steel with carbides, the average non-knife knut finds it difficult. If Buck switched to 440C they would lose their primary target customer, who is NOT a knife knut.

Im with you on the choice of steels. I do love 1095 although I would like for most trad manufacturers to harden it a bit more. I think 55rc is what I have read that GEC does. 1095 will do 58-60 easily. Also, for stainless, as far as Im concerned if it isnt at the very least 440C its pot metal. Really, S30V is ubiquitous anymore as well as 154CM. So it raises the price a litte, its much better than this stuff they are using now.

See Richstag quote below. He's got the correct hardness range.

Buck runs their 420HC at ~58HRC.

I have to correct you on this segment in red.

I believe its 57-59. I called and made a thread a while back I will search for it...

Kevin

ETA http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/909314-Great-Eastern-Cutlery-Heat-Treat-RC-Rating

Personally, I've become a fan of Queen D2. For the types of cutting I do, it just works so much better for me than anything else commonly available in a traditional blade that, steel junky that I am, I'm quite satisfied with it and am currently having problems buying anything else.

Future of Traditional Cutlery? I agree with the Italian aphorism: "100 years from now, we'll all be bald." By the time the future rolls around, I'll likely not be caring.

 

[mtangent]

Try Queen's D2. D2 will hold an edge better than S35VN.

CPM 3V has superior toughness, but I cannot imagine any usage of a traditional pocket knife in which a tough steel is an advantage. Why could you possibly want that alloy in a pocket knife?



The difference in production costs associated with switching from 420HC to 440C would be huge. Buck fine blanks 420HC. You cannot fine blank 440C. Fine blanking is a very fast, very low cost process. Moreover, while the average knife knut thinks nothing of sharpening a blade steel with carbides, the average non-knife knut finds it difficult. If Buck switched to 440C they would lose their primary target customer, who is NOT a knife knut.





See Richstag quote below. He's got the correct hardness range.

Buck runs their 420HC at ~58HRC.




Personally, I've become a fan of Queen D2. For the types of cutting I do, it just works so much better for me than anything else commonly available in a traditional blade that, steel junky that I am, I'm quite satisfied with it and am currently having problems buying anything else.

Future of Traditional Cutlery? I agree with the Italian aphorism: "100 years from now, we'll all be bald." By the time the future rolls around, I'll likely not be caring.

You have pretty much proven my point, by being a fan of Queen D2. What if queen had stuck with "queen steel" or queen city's 1095? You would never have experienced D2.
As to S35VN, it is extremely corrosion resistant, D2 isn't.
3V doesn't have to be a thick heavy lump; the toughness can be used to make a strong, very thin blade, perfect for a slip joint. If it were available, you may find it better than D2. We will never know until it's out there.

 

[pinnah]

When I bring up the topic of knives with my Scouts, I note that the majority of them have locking, single blade folders. Most often the younger guys have the "gas station" variety, some sort of Buck style lockback ripoff of varying sizes, with no-name steel and tang stamp.
(snip...)
Since I regularly carry both, and have pointed it out, they've chosen to concentrate on the locking Buck that I have in a belt sheath rather than the Schatt and Morgan in my pocket.
(snip...)
After he was done, he couldn't help but observe how much faster the Case did the job, and he didn't get hurt with such an "unsafe" (his father's words) knife. Funny, but when I put an Opinel in this year's Christmas grab bag, he got it and now carries it with him to all our events...
(snip...)

The difference in production costs associated with switching from 420HC to 440C would be huge. Buck fine blanks 420HC. You cannot fine blank 440C.

This is going to be a bit of rant. Sorry in advance....

I agree wholeheartedly about the points on knife safety and the need for kids to learn how to use slip joints. We're going through that with our kids currently, in fact.

I think one of the things this thread points out is that the knife world, like most retail markets, is now essentially a global market place. We can all jump on this forum and see knives from all over the world. This forum has introduced me to Mora, Opinel and Svord. Who knew?

But as Zippofan's discussion about his scout troop points out and knarfeng's post underscores, the lion's share of the knife buyers are looking for low-cost knives. And there's just no getting around this point... the locking single blade has become the most popular style of knife by far.

Global market. Single blade locker. Low cost. High functionality. --> Buck is in real trouble.

Arguably, Buck single-handedly legitimized the locking folder in the US. They did so with the once ultra sturdy Buck 110 and later Buck 112. But IMO, Buck is stumbling. Their classic 110s and 112s are having problems with solid lock up (judging by the recurring threads in the Buck sub-forum and even comments from Buck representatives there). The fine blanking used on the 420HC may be a part of the problem due to less precise fit of the lock bar into the blade. Different bushings and pins may be a part of the problem. We just don't know. And Buck's modern locking folders like Vantage have other recurring QC problems that get discussed regularly. All of these knives sell in the $30 - $50 range retail. The plastic Bucks in the $20 range are even worse.

Global market. Single blade locker. Low cost. High functionality. --> Opinel!

Today, anybody in Buck's potential buyers can point their browser to just about any online retailer and have an Opinel delivered to their door for under $20. The Opinel is lighter and easier to pocket carry. The flat/convex ground blade handles most EDC and camping chores better (Buck's stubborn commitment to hollow grinds works better for hunting). The Opinel's lock ring is more solid and durable than Buck's lockback.

The Opinel has not only displaced all my Bucks (other than for hunting), it is by far the mostly commonly requested gift from friends who know I might gift them with a knife. It looks "cool and old" but still gives the easy pocket carry and locking blade they demand as they're transitioning off of cheap lockers.

IMO, if you want to convert people from modern lockers to traditionals, the Opinel is an obvious choice.

 

[parbajtor]

We have a slightly different perspective in the UK.
Do to legality issues with carrying a knife in public place, by far the most popular knife is the under 3" non-locking folding pocketknife.
For the simple reason that it is S.139 exempt and you don't need "good reason" to be carrying one.
Further to this is that you still have to satisfy the police officer that your knife is exempt, and most police wouldn't look twice at a traditional folder.
Heck, the Victorinox Swiss Army Knife is commonly quoted as typical of the type of knife exempt from S.139.
A lot of people are clocking on to the fact "carry what you want, but the knife that'll see you on your way quickly with no fuss" is a traditional slipjoint.

 

[FarmKid]

On a side note. From a few different case dealers I've talked to they've said that case is going to come out with more work knives or user friendly knives. Over the past few years they have came out with some user friendly products. Their steel is ok for me I have no complaints. I just hope the bring back sum older patterns. I'd bout bet the farm if they reintroduced the 92 pattern jack or stockman or put more patterns in yellow or derlin they prolly could up their client base. Mayb do like GEC and come out with new patterns that people will actually use. How many of y'all on here would buy a 4inch sodbuster in yellow cv? A 3 7/8 inch trapper? Easy open jack in chestnut bone cv? I can't tell y'all one thing; case has did a lot better job with fit and finish over the last couple years.

 

[DrPenguin]

Interesting perspective parbajtor. Legality for sure can get in the way of a lot of these locking tactical knives. Just for my curiosity what do you find the age range of the average knife carrier to be in the UK? Is one group more likely to carry or are carriers spread out across the age groups?

I enjoyed reading the different opinions on steel used. I am kind of in the middle on that. I have and use Queen's D2. Consider it a great steel. But in all honesty I am not sure I consider it a step up from the old Queen stainless, 440C. Both are at the upper end of what I would consider appropriate steels for a traditional pocket knife. Not because of any disregard for the qualities other more 'modern' steels have but because I honestly feel that for a knife to be traditional it has to be something that can readily sharpened in the field.

D2 ~can~ cross that line. Trying to touch up my D2 stuff with typical Arkansas stones is a lesson in futility. 440C is something that on a typical knife grind does not lend itself to setting the shoulders of the edge with Arkansas stones. I can get them touched up without resorting to diamond hones but find it easier to just get them out and get it over with until the final polish if it gets one. But I still consider 440C to be a premier steel. Honestly I consider it the best compromise of all the choices. I can get a 1095 like edge with a higher edge retention. 1095 is just no worries at all and it has a ton of history behind it. I don't know that the edge it takes can be beaten. And it holds it OK. Good stuff.

Just my opinion though.

But Pinnah makes a great point about what people expect in terms of safety and performance. I'll just add that I think this ties in perfectly with what I said earlier about the entire outdoors equipment apparatus selling people things that are not better but are more expensive or can be used to talk them into "upgrading". I'll give an example with my buddy here at work. We've known each other for over 15 years. Big hunter like me but he took it up as an adult. Mostly deer with the possibility of an elk hunt at some time. (how many times have we heard this?) He wants to purchase a rifle. Lord knows he does need a good one. Did a lot of reading on the subject.

He asks me about it. I recommend a well made 30-06. He says he's thinking 300 Winmag at a minimum. Maybe something a bit bigger. ~sigh~ Says he is far from certain an old 06 has the steam for an elk. For deer maybe. I ask him when the last time he took a shot over 500 yards. Even just a quarter mile. Answer: never. Told him that was the kind of shot he would need to make to get any field advantage over the lighter, shorter, less punishing 30-06. Not convinced I can tell. No wonder. You read all the info off the net or the hunting mags and you'd get the idea that a 30-06 has about the mustard and trajectory you'd get rolling a meat ball of the dinner table.

Anyhow this is what I see. At least in outdoors knives. You have some people buying knives as weapons. Sorry but traditionals are tools not weapons. At least 95% of them make poor ones. If that is what they are after then nothing that is done will change their minds. Nor should it.

Will

 

[ptradeco]

Had the OP's question been asked a 100 years ago the correct answer would have been - Bleak! Compare the number of knife makers then to now. Had the question been asked 50 years ago the correct answer would have been - Bleaker! Same reason. I think the correct answer today would be the same. Producers have to follow the trends of the day and the traditional pocketknife just doesn't occupy the same place in society as it once did. Will the traditional knife survive another 10 years, sure, but probably in a lesser form than today. Another 100 years, that may well depend on us, and how well we support our custom makers.

I believe the future of the traditional folder lies with the fine craftsmen who continue to make traditional knives on a custom basis. And while there will always be a place for the finely crafted renditions of the Sheffield era such as made by Ken Erickson or the incredible tools that come out of Wilfred Works there are many other talented makers that will require our support to survive. The important thing is for us to support these craftsmen so they can make a decent living, support their families, and pass on their talents to the next generation. If we ultimately lose these folks then traditional knives will undoubtably fade away into history.

Now I am not suggesting that anyone stop buying from Case, GEC, Queen etc. but maybe give some thought to skipping a couple of those purchases and saving for a custom. If you have never worked directly with a maker you have cheated yourself out of what can be a very rewarding experience.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Brad, I've been thinking about saving for a custom folder. Seems that some makers get tired of bowies and tactical knives, and move on to slipjoints. A confirmation of their skills, an "I can do that attitude" maybe?

 

[J. Oeser]

Brad, I agree. I can think of quite a few younger knife makers my age like Enrique, Bret, Rick and a few more that are in their mid to late thirties that I imagine will be making traditional style knives for many years to come. Custom makers will certainly help keep traditionals around for future generations. And if I have anything to say about it there will be slipjoints in young folks pockets for many more years too. I have 3 boys that are dying to put one of mine in their pocket (their really young still).

Had the OP's question been asked a 100 years ago the correct answer would have been - Bleak! Compare the number of knife makers then to now. Had the question been asked 50 years ago the correct answer would have been - Bleaker! Same reason. I think the correct answer today would be the same. Producers have to follow the trends of the day and the traditional pocketknife just doesn't occupy the same place in society as it once did. Will the traditional knife survive another 10 years, sure, but probably in a lesser form than today. Another 100 years, that may well depend on us, and how well we support our custom makers.

I believe the future of the traditional folder lies with the fine craftsmen who continue to make traditional knives on a custom basis. And while there will always be a place for the finely crafted renditions of the Sheffield era such as made by Ken Erickson or the incredible tools that come out of Wilfred Works there are many other talented makers that will require our support to survive. The important thing is for us to support these craftsmen so they can make a decent living, support their families, and pass on their talents to the next generation. If we ultimately lose these folks then traditional knives will undoubtably fade away into history.

Now I am not suggesting that anyone stop buying from Case, GEC, Queen etc. but maybe give some thought to skipping a couple of those purchases and saving for a custom. If you have never worked directly with a maker you have cheated yourself out of what can be a very rewarding experience.

 

[MT Damascus]

I echo Brad's post.



Kris

 

[Hammer67]

"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."

- G. Mahler

From my point of view, that fire is being preserved through a number of fine knifemakers today.

 

[Boggs]

This is one Steel Dead Horse that's been beaten so many times as to try and revive and there's a good reason it's dead........look at how many different steels have been introduced in the last 5 years for folders only to be replaced, replaced and replaced by another..talk about disarray it's constantly reinvigorating itself,but that's the nature of this segment.....and when you look at slip joints over the last 20 years the steels that have been introduced..BG42, ATS34, 154, O1 and recently Canal Street with 14-4 CrMo and of these only BG42 has lost favor.
So the slip joint segment need to reinvigorate itself too.......and I say why?.......1095 and 440c are true tested and time worn by my fathers father and his fathers. Steels that can be relied on not to fail, can be depended on and I know exactly what to expect each time I reach for it. And when I feel like a change ATS34 and 154 are there also... again steels that have been shown that there's not a need for anything else...plus they're favorites of many Custom Makers..........

 

[silenthunterstudios]

For the high price of a custom knife, I would like to get a higher grade steel. On a Bose/Erickson/Pena/Davison/Oeser/Dowell etc (no slight against any other great makers, I can't remember everyone and this would be the longest run on sentence ever), I would like to see a higher grade steel, for the price. Are higher grade steels offered on their knives? I am ashamed to admit I don't know.

Would this be good or bad for the traditional knife market?

 

[kamagong]

I only discovered slipjoints in my mid-20s, so I am not as wedded to them as most are here. I grew up with different knives and my father never carried, so I didn't have strong feelings towards them, either for or against. So when I started looking into slipjoints I judged them on their merits, and wasn't really influenced by old memories or sentimental attachments.

A decade ago the only slipjoints I knew of were the ones they sold at Ace Hardware, Home Depot, and Wal-Mart. Namely Buck, Camillus, Case, and Schrade. Good, solid knives, but nothing to write home about. They didn't appeal to me. Synthetic scales with mostly no-name stainless blades, I didn't want anything to do with them. Internet commerce was still in its infancy , so I had no idea where to find better knives, or even if there were any.

Fast forward ten years. Slipjoints with ebony, jigged bone, and stag are readily available. They are no longer limited to low end stainless, but also offered with 12c27, 154cm, 1095, and D2. These knives aren't sold at places like Ace, Home Depot, or Wally World so a bit of savvy shopping is required. Given that people today shop for vacations and even clothes online, I consider that a non-issue.

The continued success of the Case and Tony Bose partnership, rise of Great Eastern, and recent purchase of Queen By the Daniels family have me optimistic for the future with regards to traditional knives. The men behind these ventures are enthusiasts like me and they strive to make knives they are proud of, not the cheapest ones they can.

One other thing. I don't think the prevalence of modern folders these days is anything to be lamented. It is true that many choose knives of this type with self-defense in mind. So what? As you all know knives are very versatile tools, and SD is an entirely legitimate use. Then again people like different things. The ones around here are predisposed to natural materials. Others prefer carbon fiber, G-10, and titanium and various locking mechanisms. No one is right, no one is wrong. As the old saw goes there is no accounting for tastes.

The important thing is not what type of knife a person is carrying, but that he is carrying a knife at all. I'd rather see a person use a "tactical" folder to open a box instead of his keys.

Besides the whole idea of what constitutes traditional is a very difficult question to answer. Traditional when? Where? In what context? My own grandfather ended up carrying a SAK in his later years despite the fact that it looked nothing like the knives he carried for the first seventy years or so of his life. I never asked him why he switched or how he could give up his balisong. Knowing him he probably would have just said that the specific knife doesn't matter, a good knife is a good knife whether or not it's traditional. The only thing that is truly traditional is that you are carrying one.

- Christian

 

[ptradeco]

Well stated Christian!

 

[kamagong]

Thanks Brad.

...of these only BG42 has lost favor.

Funny you should say that. I have a Queen with a BG-42 blade and I've often thought that it is the finest steel I've ever used, at least when it comes to pocketknives. Tough, takes a fine edge, and holds it. I wish production slipjoint makers would use it more often; I'd be forced to reevaluate my preference for 1095.

For the high price of a custom knife, I would like to get a higher grade steel. On a Bose/Erickson/Pena/Davison/Oeser/Dowell etc (no slight against any other great makers, I can't remember everyone and this would be the longest run on sentence ever), I would like to see a higher grade steel, for the price. Are higher grade steels offered on their knives? I am ashamed to admit I don't know.

Would this be good or bad for the traditional knife market?

Depends on what you mean by higher grade. Off the top of my head I can remember custom slipjoints made with 440V, 52100, A2, BG-42, CPM154, D2, and S30V.

- Christian

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Thanks Brad.



Funny you should say that. I have a Queen with a BG-42 blade and I've often thought that it is the finest steel I've ever used, at least when it comes to pocketknives. Tough, takes a fine edge, and holds it. I wish production slipjoint makers would use it more often; I'd be forced to reevaluate my preference for 1095.



Depends on what you mean by higher grade. Off the top of my head I can remember custom slipjoints made with 440V, 52100, A2, BG-42, CPM154, D2, and S30V.

- Christian

Those seem to be premium steels to me. .

 

[Boggs]

Christian .....Right on....................... 440V, 52100, A2, BG-42, CPM154, D2, and S30V and correct all Premium Steels just not the trendy Steel of the Day

 

[Django.cj]

From what I can tell, the people buying mall ninja tacticool knives with super duper steels seem to spend most of their time batoning their knives through logs and looking for other ways to destroy them.

I'm extremely happy (and prefer) boring old carbon steel, or 420hc. They work wonderfully, are inexpensive, and sharpen up easily. I can never get the razor edge on the fancy new steel that I can with a SAK or Case.