Fyi- Design Issues

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JB Knives

JB Knives

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Apr 18, 2007
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Just thought I would post this here before any accusations are made. I am not sure how big an issue this is, but I figured it was better to hear it from me first.:eek:
(following is an e-mail communication- responses sent to the 1st party and to Graham Knives 5-14-07)

Thanks for the response, Spencer. I actually own a Graham Bros. Mid-tech Razel, and it is an excellent tool in the knife shop. As far as your concerns:
1.- My Lacerator was based on a reverse- tanto blade. The angle of the tip was reduced to provide greater tip strength. I was aware of the Razels- however, I felt my design was unique enough in construction and design to stand on its own and not encroach on the Graham Bros. business or designs. If the Graham Bros. disagree, I can alter the point angle until it more resembles a reverse-tanto shape than a Razel, although some performance will be lost. Almost every design has been created before- does this mean there is no more room for new maker's designs? I don't know for sure, but I hope not.
2.- My pocket sheath is essentially a left-handed belt sheath with less blade retention on the knife to allow easier use. I have carried factory knives with right-handed kydex belt sheaths in my left pocket for years ( I am left handed). It was only natural for me to want to apply this to my own knives. My sheaths also differ in construction from the Graham Bros. Kydex sheaths in several ways. Again, this seems to be an issue of everything to do having been done before. If necessary, I can describe them as left- handed belt sheaths and inform customers they can be worn as right-hand pocket sheaths.
Graham Brothers, I welcome your concerns or comments. I am a young maker (25 yrs. old), and I am new to the knifemaking world as a business of sorts. As a new maker, the last thing I need is to be labelled a thief or a fraud. Due to your seniority in this business, I will follow any reccomendations you may have. I did not enter into knifemaking so I could rip off the hard work of others, and if you feel I am doing so, I will GLADLY resolve this issue. All I want to do is make the knife I have always wanted but never found. My contact info. is below; and I thank you for your time in this matter.
Spencer, thanks for the warning. I was mostly unaware of the cutthroat nature of the world of custom knives (ha ha). It always seemed, when I was learning, that knifemakers by nature were not that adversarial and always willing to help the new guys. I am just glad someone brought this to my attention before I was accused of idea theft.
I will also try to post this on bladeforums to inform others of this situation before accusations are made; also as a warning to other new knifemakers. Perhaps there just isn't any room yet for us young'uns in the knifemaking world- although I hope this isn't the case. I love what I do, and I was looking forward to many years more.
- JIM BAKER
jimbaker@jbknives.biz
jbknives@yahoo.com
www.jbknives.biz

SC65SURF@aol.com wrote:
Hey Jim

I was surfing blade forums and checked out your wepage 2 things really stuck out and not in a good way.

1 the lacerator looks almost exactly like a Graham Knives SS5 just wondering where your inspiration for this knife came about if by accident then I encourage you to call the Graham brother and talk with them.

Also the pocket sheath is featured on there website as well, the Graham brother have been around for quite some time and from your webpage you state you just started making?

It has been my experience that stuff of this nature is very gray area and usually ends up in a very bad flame war on the forums. The end result one maker will be called a copier and producing a fake, Jim please do not take this the wrong way I am just bringing this to your attention as well as the graham Brother.

You have some good skills and designs on your page so with that check out the Grahams webpage and make a decision for your self http://www.grahamknives.com/.

Intellectual property is a valued and guarded fiercely these days and stuff of this nature has a way of working itself out.

Spencer







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See what's free at AOL.com.
 
heh, I have a couple drawings for something very similar to your lacerator that I want to make for a police officer friend. Extra chisel edge for scraping, plus a little belly. You're right, nothing new under the sun, reversing the tanto has been done for quite a while, and I'm sure the pocket sheath is even older.
 
:) Thanks for the responses. I am talking w/ Josh @ Graham Knives privately.
I am sure this will be easily resolved and all parties will be happy!:)
 
So Jim, just to make sure we're all 100% clear on what's going on here (I think it's clear, but let's fill in the narrative to make sure I'm not jumping to mistaken conclusions)...

A fellow "Spencer" emailed you after seeing your website. He's not affiliated with Graham Bros- the email from him that you attached there is his first message to you.
He's concerned for your well-being and for Graham Bros.' IP, so he sends you an email to tell you to call them.
if by accident then I encourage you to call the Graham brother and talk with them.
Click to expand...
It sounds like he's also emailing the Graham Bros.:
I am just bringing this to your attention as well as the graham Brother.
Click to expand...

Did he CC his email to them when he sent it to you?

So you sent the reply above. You sent it to Spencer, to Graham Knives, and you posted a copy to BFC, all today.

Is all that right?
Do you know who Spencer is?

Mike
 
That is correct. I am not sure who Spencer is, but I did want him to know I was seriously looking into his concerns. Spoke to Josh Graham on the phone. Just to let everyone know, there are no problems whatsoever; and we agree that similar features on a knife does not make them the same knife.
Just to be perfectly clear, I did not mean to imply that Graham Knives had accused me of infringing on thier design; I merely wanted to bring this issue to attention and let everyone know that the similarities were not intentional.
Josh Graham was very pleasant and helpful on the phone, and I am glad to have this issue resolved. I look forward to meeting the Graham Bros. at next year's blade show- hopefully many more makers as well!:D
 
First of all if you are reffering to the knife in your signature it is more than far enough away from the razel model. Second, Graham bros. were not the first people to make a chisel knife nor are they the only ones making one now. Becker and probably others offer such designs. All of them seem to me to be based on old dive knives and have simply removed the top false edge and therfore are simply extensions of that blunt tip design. Also pocket sheaths are not an invention of the Grahams.

So I dont know why this guy bothered to bug you at all. If the Grahams felt you were a design thief I'm shure they would have brought it to your attention. I do believe they have a great knife and design in the Razel series.

I do understand the pressure of original designs. I have a knife at HT that I loved when I was making it but when I finished I noticed the blade had come out kind of close to R.J. Martins rampage. Although I know I did not intend for this to happen I was planning on emailing a pic to RJ to get his thoughts. If he felt it was to close I was simply gona finish the knife out and use it around the shop. Doesnt sound like you would step on anyones toes either, thats the most importamt part IMO.
 
My only opinion on this is that JBKnives acted very professionally, to make sure he wasn't in the wrong. That shows class :thumbup:
 
My observation over the years has been that in cases like this people naturally tend to see the similiarities and not the differences that distinguish designs. My further observation is that it is also frequently someone who is a friend or acquaintance who is defending the "intellectual property" of the aggrieved. They are well intentioned but often not spot on.

My recommendation to anyone who is going to cry "foul" to another is that they have a VERY good grasp on their knife history, especially the pictorial history of modern knifemaking preserved in the Knives Annuals. A full set can be put together by careful searching through online used booksellers.

There's really little new under the sun. Check pp 140 of Knives '92 for a double-edged chisel tip dive knife. It's an interesting page because also on it are two examples of the now-current-again "duplex grind", one a hunter made by our own Mike Lovett. (There's also a Jay Fisher rigging knife and a Bobby Branton thrower on the same page. Pretty neat page of knives.)

If one wanted another take on the blunt chisel point, Google "Shun Pro Nakiri". I doubt they were copying the Razel.

Added: you did well, JB. I second others' comments on your professionality.
 
Just my 2 cents, but I think many knives look the same. Your Lacerator while similiar has your own touch and style. I think Graham would agree and I don't feel that, unless you patent a design, anyone has the right to accuse the other "stealing an idea". With that said, good job, Jim and keep up the good work!!!
 
JB, it's great that you stepped up to take responsibility but I don't see where you had any worries. It seems Spencer was trying to be decent about things but on the other hand, I've seen too many self appointed intellectual design police to be a big fan of them. Make what ever knives you want, attribute the style/influence if you need to and that's going to be good enough for 99% of the makers today. Like the others said, it's all been done before and those that have been doing this awhile know that. I guess I'm still a little pissed about the hell some of these guys (I doubt Spencer had anything to do with it) put Rene Roy through when he was just getting started. Make knives, have fun Jim...
 
I see no problem with your post and your design.


I think that regardless of who thought up the chisel-tip knife...it is obvious that the Graham Bros have done a heckuva marketing job and made the design their own. Josh and Jon are hard-workin' folks just like the rest of us. Thank goodness they choose to take the high road on these matters (compared to other makers who have become downright nasty regarding their "patterns/ideas/designs").


My personal opinion is this:

1 - I strive to not copy others' work. Not because I'm afraid of libel...but because I want to create a niche for myself....clearly distinguishable blade designs - influences? yes. copies? no. If I make something that ends up looking "just like somebody else's..." (even innocently) I would probably drop the design.

2 - I like the chisel-tip knife design. Yes, I could easily make one myself. But, I'd rather buy one of the Graham Bros (and others') versions...to own "their work/design/ideas". A copy will only ever be a copy. (and I'm proud to say I own two "originals"...just got the 2nd one today!)


3 - There is no shame is saying you were influenced by the Graham Bros' (and others') work. It clearly shows. Just treat it that way. Don't be sheepish or sneaky about it (to clear the record...I'm not accusing you of that...just pointing out the "high road"...generally speaking).


You did good by posting...and by contacting the Graham Bros. How difficult is a simple phone call, right? Many people overlook this simple step.


Best of luck with your work - looks great!
 
I'm glad to see that I seem to be on the right track, thinking I should incorporate my influences but strive to make them my own. This may prove difficult because I mainly like drop-point hunters and big bowies.

If you guys think "originality" can get contentious in the knife world, take a look at the music business... should I never do an ascending pentatonic run because Ritchie Blackmore already did? I have a bag-full of examples like that but you probably get the point...
 
GibsonFan said:
I'm glad to see that I seem to be on the right track, thinking I should incorporate my influences but strive to make them my own. This may prove difficult because I mainly like drop-point hunters and big bowies.

If you guys think "originality" can get contentious in the knife world, take a look at the music business... should I never do an ascending pentatonic run because Ritchie Blackmore already did? I have a bag-full of examples like that but you probably get the point...
Click to expand...

Boy aint that the truth! Most inovation is nothing more than one guy being smart enough to take a good idea from the past and resurect it that includes pocket clips and one hand opening devices). Music is the perfect example and the use of clasical modes into rock and roll was mindblowing, but it's not like the guys invented the scales, modes or arpegios. I also agree that the Graham Bros have been the main force behind this design and they certainly deserve credit as such. Glad this thread stayed nice and that makers care about such things.
 
Yup you got my point exactly, BigJim. Especially the neo-classical thing...

I never heard of Graham Bros before this thread, but it sounds like they are stand-up guys, based on what JB said about their convo :thumbup:

If by chance it would have been one of certain other companies who I will not mention by name knives in question, it would have been a lawsuit :jerkit:
 
You did good JB :thumbup: In this situation I think Spencer meant well too, it sounded like it anyway.As makers I think we're all influenced by others designs in one way or another. I have been heavily influenced by George Herron , Bob Loveless and many of you here on BF. We can't help but be influenced, I believe its impossible. I have a different take than some on designs. Bob Loveless for instance. I make a Drop Point Hunter that is almost exactly like Bobs. I do of course advertise it as a Loveless design, giving credit where credit is due. Not only do I NOT try to make it different, I try to make it identical, in every way shape & form. His Drop Point Hunter design (and many others of his ) are not only perfect, they are a study in knifemaking. Why change perfection. That is my tribute to him as a knifemaker and a gentleman. I've read many books he's written, seen every Vid & DVD he has made or been in. Read books by others about him too. I also have many designs that are, what I like to believe "mine" or "my style", I guess they are in a way.........but not really :) ;) I don't think the few knives I make every year affect the bottom line of anyone in anyway. I think all involved handled this well , JB, Spencer, Grahams, IMHO. Nice Blade JB :thumbup:
 
David Wesner said:
I make a Drop Point Hunter that is almost exactly like Bobs. I do of course advertise it as a Loveless design, giving credit where credit is due. Not only do I NOT try to make it different, I try to make it identical, in every way shape & form... Why change perfection. That is my tribute to him as a knifemaker and a gentleman...
Click to expand...

I totally understand your point. (again with the guitar/music analogies...) Many custom luthiers and not-a-few manufacturers, openly and honestly make their own "copies" of Strats and Les Pauls. Sometimes with minor changes, technological upgrades, finer woods or electronics, custom options etc that just aren't practical for a mass-market producer. Many times custom luthiers faithfully re-produce Fender or Gibson models that simply aren't being made anymore, for whatever reason.* There's nothing wrong with this, since they're very clear about it, as you are with your Loveless DP. As you say, it's a tribute and an honor, not a rip-off.

This example does not apply to off-shore knock-offs of a Strat or LP, anymore than it would apply to a cheapo Pakistani or Chinese knock-off of a Loveless (or Ka-Bar, for that matter). Those are made with inferior materials and don't measure up to the standards set by the originals. I'm talking about respectable makers who make an exemplary product, based on someone else's innovation.

*It's only fair to note, that headstocks and logo's of these axes are registered trademarks, and any maker who blatantly copied them would be subject to a great deal of well-deserved scorn. They would also get their butt handed to them in court. (this has happened.) Surely, a knifemaker wouldn't copy another's tang stamp.
 
With all due respect...it's not fair to use the Loveless drop-point hunter as an example. How many other knives were so copied - and uniformly across so many makers? It's on par with the liner-lock for folders.

As successful as the Grahams are, they are not Loveless...


...yet. ;)







I don't have a problem with replicas....just with those who copy without giving credit...and those who ride the coat-tails of others. Of course, when it's a rookie mistake...it's forgivable.
 
Daniel Koster said:
With all due respect...it's not fair to use the Loveless drop-point hunter as an example. How many other knives were so copied - and uniformly across so many makers? It's on par with the liner-lock for folders.

As successful as the Grahams are, they are not Loveless...


...yet. ;)
Click to expand...


True :) ;)

Daniel Koster said:
I don't have a problem with replicas....just with those who copy without giving credit...and those who ride the coat-tails of others. Of course, when it's a rookie mistake...it's forgivable.
Click to expand...


Even more true :D ;)
 
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