Fyi- Design Issues

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Disclaimer: I do not know the Grahams, have nothing against them or their knife. I have heard enough people speak to their character that I am sure they are fine individuals and I wish them nothing but success. I also realize they have nothing to do with this thread and have made no complaint about JB's design. I hope they will forgive me from using their Razel as an example.

The only point I am trying to make here is that "new" ideas have often been explored at some point in the past. Case in point is the salient feature of the Razel, the chisel-sharpened square tip. It took me a little looking, but on pp 174 of Knives '96 is the Ontario SpecPlus Machete:
http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/t...ives - Ontario Knives&level3.ctx=specplus.tam

My question is, since this design feature is present in a commercially available production piece from 1996, can it then later be considered public domain for custom knives? Isn't there applicability of the phrase "prior art" at work here? I personally think so, but am certainly interested in a cogent argument against.

Again, my apologies to the Grahams, as I use the Razel only as an example to illustrate my main point. I wish them every bit of success with their knife line.
 
Daniel Koster said:
With all due respect...it's not fair to use the Loveless drop-point hunter as an example. How many other knives were so copied - and uniformly across so many makers? It's on par with the liner-lock for folders.
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Hmm! That's a thinker.

I presume you're saying, a Loveless hunter, or Buck 110, or Schrade Sharpfinger, or the archetypal ABS bowie, represents a design that's become widely-known and widely accepted. One might well say, the design is so well-known (and its origins so unclear) that it becomes public domain, like a holiday song or the basic pattern of a pair of pants. I can't argue with that. After all, who's to say who invented the tanto? Or bowie? Or Mora? Or...

The reverse-tanto profile (frankly, I would have described it as a highly-modified straight-razor or sheepsfoot, but what do I know) that started this thread is not quite so well-established in its context; still, it's not something that one maker or designer invented, as far as I know. I think a copyright attorney would have a real hard time proving intellectual property rights on something like that. Another poster mentioned the woodworker's chisel grind and profile as a precedent; I agree that none of the main design elements in this knife are exactly "new" or proprietary.

The most important thing I've learned from this thread is makers' and manus' willingness to admit influence and do business in a forthright manner. I suspect that's the norm, rather than the exception.
 
What the heck? I must have hit the post reply button twice, hence the edit and additional text :o

Daniel Koster said:
I don't have a problem with replicas....just with those who copy without giving credit...and those who ride the coat-tails of others. Of course, when it's a rookie mistake...it's forgivable.
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Even more true :D ;)


That is the primary reason I stuck up for JB. Like Tracy mentioned about Rene Roy (RIP) , I believe being chastised for an honest mistake can have a very negative impact on a guy just starting out. I went through something similar over the name of a knife. I said earlier, I believe we are all influenced by other makers. As crazy as this may sound I believe we're influenced both consciously and sub-consciously. That may at times, be where some of the "honest mistakes" come in . I have occasionally changed the lines on new designs after realizing they looked too much like something else from another maker. I did not mean to offend anyone, if I did I apologize. I hope that over time I can give back just a fraction of what I have gained here. If I count friendship along with the knowledge it will be quite a file. ;)
 
David - what you are saying makes perfect sense. I too hope that JB will take this well.

On a related note:

I had a "name this knife" contest a while back that resulted in a name that was (later pointed out to me) being used by another company. I did not want to be associated with that company...nor incur their wrath...and honestly, I didn't think the new name was "trademark-able"....but I added a letter to it to make it my own...now, nobody can say anything...it is above reproach. It's better to be on the high road. (and I didn't have to eat any crow, thankfully)
 
Thanks again everyone! I was very nervous upon receiving the orig. e-mail-definitely not how I wanted to start my career. I am grateful that the Graham Bros. were understanding and agreed that our designs were different enough to co-exist; as I was willing to pull this knife immediately from my site if they felt it was too close. I don't intend to make the design in question one that I am known for, but I did have fun making them ( I only made 2, and one is mine). The Graham Razel is an excellent design and the Graham Bros. deserve the recognition attached to it. I am very fond of my Lacerator design, and I am considering increasing the tip angle to more resemble a reverse tanto-hopefully this will help it stand apart from the Razel (which is, by the way, an excellent knife shop tool!).
P.S.- I added a link to the Graham Bros. "Razel line" page in my Lacerator description- I think I'll sleep better, and everyone who wants " that knife, just a little different" will probably find exactly what they want there!
 
Spencer, Thanks for the heads up. :thumbup:

Jim, Thanks for the great attitude. :thumbup:


Life is good, Remember what is important in life and enjoy it. :thumbup:




:D Holly Crap, we were mentioned in the same sentence with Bob Loveless. How cool is that :thumbup: :thumbup: :D I know, I know, don't bother correcting me, just let us enjoy it for a little while first.:D :D
 
I'd buy a knife from either the Graham Brothers or JBKnives purely based on their conduct in this matter. Well handled gentlemen:thumbup:
 
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