G10 G10 G10 wheres the micarta

[Dan57]

I don't think you have to oil Micarta. The only real difference between it and G10 is that G10 uses fiberglass impregnated in phenolic resin, while Micarta uses different types of fabric. This makes G10 slightly stronger, (or so I've heard,) and it also means that Micarta can absorb small amounts of liquid, while G10 is almost completely impervious. That's it. While the two look and feel very different, structurally, they're very similar.

 

[hayes31]

I prefer micarta as well, just because it has a nicer feel to my hand... I really hope to see Spyderco throw some micarta in there soon, for some reason I just can't stand their carbon fiber

 

[chiral.grolim]

I find G10 easier to wok than micarta.
Micarta has a superb feeling, but is porous... reminds you of wood.
My choice is rough micarta as well

But it's not really porous, it's phenolic resin (epoxy-soak) just like G10, only the substrate isn't FRN. Fabric is porous but the pores are saturated with resin so material can only absorb into loose strands on a rough surface and only that deep as well, so there's no substantial penetration. The difference between this level of absorption and G10 is that FRN doesn't hold onto the liquid/contaminants as well as fabric, so it's easier to clean. But liquid penetration is equal.

 

[t1mpani]

A long time ago I got into the habit of coating my canvas micarta handles in clear polyurethane---they always look freshly oiled and do not absorb anything else. It's worth noting, though, that the soft/velvety feel is lost when you do this.

 

[jdm61]

I actually think that G10 uses epoxy. The preference for G10 may be because it is lighter, etc., but it may also be because it is "new" and more modern. G10 was a replacement for Micarta and its cousins in the electrical industry. G10 has since been replaced by a self extinguishing version of GRP, FRP4, IIRC. If done right, G10 should be stronger. but that assumes that it is done right. Fiberglass is funny stuff. My exposure to the boating industry taught me that fiberglass reinforced plastics like glass with epoxy, vinylester or polyester resin are actually stronger if you use LESS resin, up to a point, of course. Point being that any "home made micarta"or glass composite that we make at home is going to be weaker than stuff made properly under pressure or vacuum because we would tend to slather on the resin until the fabric was wetted out, but there would be a lot of space between the layers and fibers that was just straight resin.

 

[jdm61]

Oh, just so you know, epoxy based composites are degraded by long term exposure to UV light unless you coat them. The same would apply to any epoxy based "My-carta" you might brew up in your garage. That is why most custom "cold molded" wood/epoxy composite boats are painted with Awlgrip.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I actually think that G10 uses epoxy. The preference for G10 may be because it is lighter, etc.
... My exposure to the boating industry taught me that fiberglass reinforced plastics like glass with epoxy, vinylester or polyester resin are actually stronger if you use LESS resin, up to a point, of course. ... there would be a lot of space between the layers and fibers that was just straight resin.

G10 is heavier by volume than micarta, not lighter (think of the composition - glass vs. cloth).

Regarding use of epoxy/resin, this is the case for all applications, in fact it is the case for all adhesives - to maximize adhesion, use the thinnest layer possible whilst still completely covering the surfaces intended to adhere. Nearly ever adhesive will have recommend this in the instructions for use

 

[chiral.grolim]

A long time ago I got into the habit of coating my canvas micarta handles in clear polyurethane---they always look freshly oiled and do not absorb anything else. It's worth noting, though, that the soft/velvety feel is lost when you do this.

You also loose grip by adding that sleek, shiny coat. Kind of pointless for a hand-tool imho, unless it's intended for a safe...

 

[calvinw]

I'm looking for a micarta knife too. G10 seems like wearing work boots with my dress pants. There are times I'd sacrifice grip and utility for plain ol' pretty.

 

[Rapt_up]

I suspect the commercial use of G10 is because its a commercially available product form other industries so is cheaper to buy because manufacturers are already all set up to make it. Its essentially printed circuit board raw material. the "jade" everyone oohs and ahs over is exactly that. Circuit boards without the copper plated layers in them.

Micarta is much more limited demand and use commercially so production availability and costs are going to be higher.

 

[jdm61]

Now there is he $64,000 question. How can you sandblast canvas micarta to get the grippy texture and then spray something durable yet thin enough to get rid of the ugly faded gray color (even a matte finish would be better) and still have some grip? Enquiring minds want to know.

You also loose grip by adding that sleek, shiny coat. Kind of pointless for a hand-tool imho, unless it's intended for a safe...

 

[chiral.grolim]

I suspect the commercial use of G10 is because its a commercially available product form other industries so is cheaper to buy...

Micarta is much more limited demand and use commercially so production availability and costs are going to be higher.

G10: 0.25x12x12" stock = $25.54
Canvas-micarta: 0.25x12x12" stock = $15.00

Nope, micarta is cheaper, and this is seen in knives as well, the same exact model with micarta vs. G10 handle scales is cheaper.

Now there is he $64,000 question. How can you sandblast canvas micarta to get the grippy texture and then spray something durable yet thin enough to get rid of the ugly faded gray color (even a matte finish would be better) and still have some grip? Enquiring minds want to know.

What "ugly faded gray color"? Could you post a pic of what you mean? Certainly the micarta has a duller appearance, less vibrant, is that what you mean?

 

[t1mpani]

You also loose grip by adding that sleek, shiny coat. Kind of pointless for a hand-tool imho, unless it's intended for a safe...

No more so than a G10 or wooden grip---it doesn't turn it to glass, just closes the pores. People were using knives of one type or another for many thousands of years prior to micarta being available as a handle material; trust me, it won't go flying out of your hand. For that matter, paper micarta is--if anything--slicker than g10.

 

[chiral.grolim]

No more so than a G10 or wooden grip---it doesn't turn it to glass, just closes the pores.

Agreed, so why put a smooth/shiny coat on a hand-tool where the pores are treated/saturated to prevent absorption beyond the immediate surface?

...paper micarta is--if anything--slicker than g10.

Agreed, which is why the focus is on canvas micarta. Could a maker tell me whether paper micarta will take a grit-pattern like G10? My canvas micarta grips don't seem to achieve the dry grip-level I can get with G10, but when oily/slimy/wet the canvas will still stay in my hand better. *shrug*

 

[jdm61]

Buffed black micarta, even canvas, is jet black. Buffed green micarta is dark green. Either of them rough sanded or blasted are ugly medium gray/gray-green. What I am wondering is if there is some kind of very thin substance, perhaps epoxy based, that could be sprayed on the stuff without totally filling in all of the "texture" like maybe one of the room temp curing gun coatings?

G10: 0.25x12x12" stock = $25.54
Canvas-micarta: 0.25x12x12" stock = $15.00

Nope, micarta is cheaper, and this is seen in knives as well, the same exact model with micarta vs. G10 handle scales is cheaper.


What "ugly faded gray color"? Could you post a pic of what you mean? Certainly the micarta has a duller appearance, less vibrant, is that what you mean?

 

[t1mpani]

Agreed, so why put a smooth/shiny coat on a hand-tool where the pores are treated/saturated to prevent absorption beyond the immediate surface?

For me, because I got tired of my hunting knife's handle absorbing blood/fat and having to be scrubbed off. The texture is still there. All I said is it no longer feels velvety. Sandpaper doesn't feel velvety either, but I'm guessing you could hold onto it.

Agreed, which is why the focus is on canvas micarta. Could a maker tell me whether paper micarta will take a grit-pattern like G10? My canvas micarta grips don't seem to achieve the dry grip-level I can get with G10, but when oily/slimy/wet the canvas will still stay in my hand better. *shrug*

Well, actually, YOUR focus is on canvas micarta, the fellow who started the thread hasn't said "canvas" once. To answer your question, the easiest way to achieve greater grip with paper (or linen) would be media blasting of some type, though of course if you're talking about modifying an existing knife, the ease of this would depend on whether the handle (or scales) is removable.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Buffed black micarta, even canvas, is jet black. Buffed green micarta is dark green. Either of them rough sanded or blasted are ugly medium gray/gray-green. What I am wondering is if there is some kind of very thin substance, perhaps epoxy based, that could be sprayed on the stuff without totally filling in all of the "texture" like maybe one of the room temp curing gun coatings?

I hope somebody gives it a shot... or maybe the cloth needs a more durable dye to begin with, or the resin needs something vibrant included? Hmm...

As an alternative, I guess a maker could try to texture the material as much as possible before adding the PU, carving small ridges throughout like bussekin - prolly wouldn't provide the truly soft/warm feel that comes from the loose fibers, but it'd approximate it?

Sandpaper doesn't feel velvety either, but I'm guessing you could hold onto it.

Have you ever held 1000-grit sandpaper or higher? It absolutely feels 'velvety'! Grit-level (size and number of particles) :thumbup:

Well, actually, YOUR focus is on canvas micarta, the fellow who started the thread hasn't said "canvas" once. To answer your question, the easiest way to achieve greater grip with paper (or linen) would be media blasting of some type, though of course if you're talking about modifying an existing knife, the ease of this would depend on whether the handle (or scales) is removable.

By the second post we were talking about 'porous' which I think most only attribute to the more common linen & canvas micarta. I guess we can ask the OP if he meant paper micarta, but the focus by post #2 was canvas, hence my assertion. *shrug*

My (limited) experience with modifying micarta grit (haven't tried blasting) was that I could get it rough, really rough, or smooth but I have never managed to make, nor seen anyone produce, micarta textured with the perfect patterns in various grits seen on G10. Is it clear what i mean by that? I've seen G10 smooth, rough, or patterned, but not micarta...

 

[Keyman]

"I've seen G10 smooth, rough, or patterned, but not micarta... "
Well, obviously micarta can be done so it is smooth or rough. Now, even though I have not tried it yet; a checkering file could be used on micarta to give it a textured surface. Also the surface could get a pattern milled into it via the belt sander or dremel tool.

 

[t1mpani]

I've checkered micarta before, but if you're talking about the surface like Spyderco puts on their g10 scales, I honestly don't know how they're going about it. Micarta is every bit as machinable as G10.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I've checkered micarta before, but if you're talking about the surface like Spyderco puts on their g10 scales, I honestly don't know how they're going about it. Micarta is every bit as machinable as G10.

Spyderco, Benchmade, Kershaw, etc., Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about, that very fine patterning, not something I can do with file/belt/dremel, but I'll admit low skill level. IS it as machinable as G10? If so, I'd like to see some examples and think that they'd be GREAT in production handles :thumbup: