Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America

[Prester John]

Been a while since anybody posted here, so.......
A couple old Movediza knives from the late 1940s / early 50s. The larger one is .925 silver, the smaller .800, 18K gold inlays.
Both handles have the Argentinian Coat of Arms. The larger blade is some sort of layered steel, not sure what exactly but its been suggested that its shear steel.

Beautiful!

 

[CelloDan]

Been a while since anybody posted here, so.......

WOW ! Great way to bump the thread
Those knives are not only breathtaking but exude with "soul" and tradition. I am jealous
Thanks for sharing !

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Nice to see activity in this thread again. Here are two German-made knives from around the same period (most likely pre-WW2) and in a similar style, despite the different formats (with chromed blades and turned horn handles), both most likely made for the Brazilian market:

The clip-point verijero I had already shown, with its new sheath fittings, though here it is after I took care of the handle (the bolster ferrule had a rotten-away section, so I made a new one, and the horn handle was effectively split, so I glued it back together, filled the cracks, and relacquered it). The other one is a relatively small hunting facón marked "D.R.G.M." (standing for Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster), featuring what I assume to be the goddess Diana or Artemis's face on the ricasso with traces of a gold wash.

Edit: I originally told screened porch that I didn't think the blade of the verijero was plated, but upon further inspection and comparison with other knives, now I believe it's chrome-plated.

 

[Prester John]

Nice to see activity in this thread again. Here are two German-made knives from around the same period (most likely pre-WW2) and in a similar style, despite the different formats (with chromed blades and turned horn handles), both most likely made for the Brazilian market:

The clip-point verijero I had already shown, with its new sheath fittings, though here it is after I took care of the handle (the bolster ferrule had a rotten-away section, so I made a new one, and the horn handle was effectively split, so I glued it back together, filled the cracks, and relacquered it). The other one is a relatively small hunting facón marked "D.R.G.M." (standing for Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster), featuring what I assume to be the Greek goddess Diana's face on the ricasso with traces of a gold wash.

Edit: I originally told screened porch that I didn't think the blade of the verijero was plated, but upon further inspection and comparison with other knives, now I believe it's chrome-plated.

Such beautiful knives! Thanks for posting. Wish I could contribute, but am still waiting for my verijero. But soon!

 

[cbach8tw]

Thanks for contributing to the thread. Good to see more pics.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Such beautiful knives! Thanks for posting. Wish I could contribute, but am still waiting for my verijero. But soon!

Paciencia, amigo mío. Do you know when more or less you'll get it? Looking forward to seeing it.

Once more, CelloDan , you've been a terrible influence with this thread!

 

[Prester John]

Paciencia, amigo mío. Do you know when more or less you'll get it? Looking forward to seeing it.

Once more, CelloDan , you've been a terrible influence with this thread!

I received a message that Maxi was finished with the knife, maybe a week or two ago, and he was sending it to get the sheath made. So I think soon. I won't have as great pics as Dan, and I am not a fisherman, but I do intend to use it often in the kitchen.

 

[CelloDan]

Here are two German-made knives from around the same period

I enjoy your restoration work and the information shared about each knife
Looks like your collection is growing ( I had nothing to do with it lol )
Diana is my wife's name ... good to see it's feature on a fighting knife ... is all good actually, she is my goddess

I received a message that Maxi was finished with the knife, maybe a week or two ago, and he was sending it to get the sheath made. So I think soon. I won't have as great pics as Dan, and I am not a fisherman, but I do intend to use it often in the kitchen.

Yeah !
Getting closer Vince ! I can't wait either !

Once more, CelloDan , you've been a terrible influence with this thread!

Gracias amigo
I initially hesitated a bit about starting this thread however I am happy I did
It is proving to be a rewarding experience to learn about criollo knives and reconnect, at least to some extend with my cultural roots.
I appreciate your contributions !

This evening I have asado on my mind

Painting "El asado" ca 1871 by Manzoni, Ignacio. Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes, Buenos Aires.
(looks like the knife is a clip point of sorts)

Asado a la estaca

Asado ala Dan LOL ( already feeling nostalgic about the summer that's gone )

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I enjoy your restoration work and the information shared about each knife
Looks like your collection is growing ( I had nothing to do with it lol )
Diana is my wife's name ... good to see it's feature on a fighting knife ... is all good actually, she is my goddess

Thanks for the kind words as always. I'm glad you enjoy my restoration projects. Some disapprove of restoring antiques; but I like my knives to be functional -- or at least whole -- even if I don't intend them as users. Still, I always try to be as non-invasive and period-correct as possible when tinkering with old pieces.

Diana is a beautiful name! I assume your wife's name is pronounced in the Spanish way (/diá-na/), right? As for the lady in my knife, was merely speculating, and I've read different hypotheses. Several folks think she's likely some lady from European royalty. However, the hairstyle and garments (fringe with a low bun, simple hairband, laurel necklace) don't support that, and it wouldn't really make sense for knives made for the South American market. In fact, it wasn't rare for German imports to feature representations of public figures from the places they were made for, like the example below, featuring the face of José Maria da Silva Paranhos (2nd Viscount of Rio Branco):

Diana (or Artemis) makes sense because, as the patroness of hunters, she was often featured in old German hunting daggers (Hirschfänger 'deer catchers'), and the portrait in question does resemble several representations I've seen, such as the Diana of Versailles.

As a side note, also common in German imports -- particularly in Argentina -- were representations of liberty as a woman wearing a Phrygian cap, as in the "Libertad" example below, made by Kirschbaum:

Painting "El asado" ca 1871 by Manzoni, Ignacio. Museo Nacional de Bellas Artes, Buenos Aires.
(looks like the knife is a clip point of sorts)

That's a very interesting painting. The knife seems to be a full-tang butcher knife, which in Domenech's classification I guess would fit best in the cuchilla category. In any case, interesting that the artist would choose this type of knife in that period!

 

[CelloDan]

Diana is a beautiful name! I assume your wife's name is pronounced in the Spanish way (/diá-na/), right?

Yes, at home and among family and hispanics friends we pronounce it the Spanish way.
The thing is that our circle of hispanic friends and acquaintances has diminished to almost none over the years since our move to a small town in eastern Ontario. The nearest family is a 4 hours drive.
So we both got used at having two names

Very informative post mi amigo ^^^

"El rodeo" painting by Pueyrredón, Prilidiano, 1861.
The vastness of the pampas at a time when no fences existed and cattle and gauchos roamed free.

My EDC for today

 

[Will Power]

CelloDan Not intending to de-rail this thread Dan as your and others' contributions have been very rewarding for a bystander like me. I recently bought a couple of kitchen knives from France and was struck by how similar the Sabatier is to your beautiful knife. A curious influence . Please excuse the diversion.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

CelloDan Not intending to de-rail this thread Dan as your and others' contributions have been very rewarding for a bystander like me. I recently bought a couple of kitchen knives from France and was struck by how similar the Sabatier is to your beautiful knife. A curious influence . Please excuse the diversion.

View attachment 2363583

Beautiful knives, especially the top one, and indeed the shape and construction is pretty similar. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some older gaucho knives, especially among those with ball-shaped bolsters, were modified Sabatiers (especially after doing a similar modification myself recently, which I showed in post #593).

 

[CelloDan]

I recently bought a couple of kitchen knives from France and was struck by how similar the Sabatier is to your beautiful knife. A curious influence

Thank you Will
Very nice knives amigo, especially the top one . It's overall shape certainly resembles the lines of my Verijero.
I find this particular knife design very comfortable to hold in use.

Designs elements I appreciate about my Verijero:
The slight curve at the spine continuing onto the handle.
The smaller diameter of the handle at the bolster.
Integral bolster and the "half moon"cut on the blade
Handle is "rounded" however it retains enough of its square shape so that along with the bolster helps in positioning the blade in your hand correctly just by feel.
Well balanced.

The above elements combine to provide a very comfortable hold. My knuckles are out of the way when cutting, the handle seems to literally sticks to my hand due to its geometry and I am aware of the knife position in the hand by feel.

As a side note , one set of my great grandparents immigrated to Argentina from France. The others were from Spain and Italy (my last name is Italian) Genetic testing indicated that our French part was much bigger than what we thought, even bigger than Italian ... but this is probably more than what you wanted to know lol

Knife in hand

https://imgur.com/7FNmzw5

 

[Prester John]

CelloDan Not intending to de-rail this thread Dan as your and others' contributions have been very rewarding for a bystander like me. I recently bought a couple of kitchen knives from France and was struck by how similar the Sabatier is to your beautiful knife. A curious influence . Please excuse the diversion.

View attachment 2363583

Beautiful knives, Will. What are the measurements? And is the white handle synthetic?

 

[Will Power]

Prester John Many thanks Vince. These are what the French call Couteau office, office knives or paring knives in English. As I prep most of my own food and infrequently eat in restaurants, never eat ready made meals, increasingly, I turn to these in the kitchen in favour or larger knives. Unless of course vast quantities of meat needs preparing or many guests etc.

The Sabatier Thiers has synthetic slabs which unlike most kitchen knives are completely rounded like the Verijero but smaller. Dimensions - lucky for you I have my Old School carpenter's ruler Metric/Imperial - 22cm /8.5" total length.
The Goyon-Chazeau slightly smaller as you can see but broader blade, it is in Magnolia wood. Both super in the hand tools.

Looking forward- impatiently- to seeing your forthcoming arrival

 

[Prester John]

Prester John Many thanks Vince. These are what the French call Couteau office, office knives or paring knives in English. As I prep most of my own food and infrequently eat in restaurants, never eat ready made meals, increasingly, I turn to these in the kitchen in favour or larger knives. Unless of course vast quantities of meat needs preparing or many guests etc.

The Sabatier Thiers has synthetic slabs which unlike most kitchen knives are completely rounded like the Verijero but smaller. Dimensions - lucky for you I have my Old School carpenter's ruler Metric/Imperial - 22cm /8.5" total length.
The Goyon-Chazeau slightly smaller as you can see but broader blade, it is in Magnolia wood. Both super in the hand tools.

Looking forward- impatiently- to seeing your forthcoming arrival

Thank you, Will. I have a number of French folding knives (Opinel No. 8 in my pocket right now), and love them all. I may explore their fixed knives too. I work in the kitchen a lot myself!

 

[CelloDan]

So far I have been using my verijero almost exclusively for food prep duties. They are rather simple and basic tasks.

While I enjoy using it this way I realize it's stout blade may not be the best suited for these tasks and that a regular kitchen knife would likely perform better on this department.

Having said that I do not miss any of my kitchen knives for the the type of simple food prep I do.

I keep mine screaming sharp. My Mom was able to slice onions very thinly with it. For cabbage she got some almost transparent slices however she was shaving it, sort of like a plane shaving wood lol

Today I took some blade measurements of my verijero and of the small basic kitchen knife my wife uses most.

Verijero: 3.5 mm at the spine close to the bolster

Kitchen knife: 1.6 mm

Comparison: Verijero tapers off significantly towards the tip

I have read on my internet travels that vintage criollo knives had stout blades ( likely like mine) to serve the wide variety of tasks that the gaucho would require his knife to perform and complains about modern factory criollo knives having thin stock blades.

I am curious about the blade measurements of more vintage criollo knives.
Tagging T Trubetzkoy and A Arathol

 

[Arathol]

Some measurements taken from older blades. First number is blade length, followed by measurement at the bolster, middle of the blade and at the tip...

Top to bottom
1980s El Chaja..........5.5"......2.98.....2.28.....2.18
1940s Movediza......4.25"....3.86.....2.55.....1.47
1960s JUCA...............5.5".......3.26.....2.28.....1.59
1960s JUCA...............4.5".......2.85.....2.28.....1.07

The newer blade clearly is thicker overall, mostly because the older blades that are most likely forged have a good distal taper. The El Chaja is pretty much straight, probably made by stock removal.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I have read on my internet travels that vintage criollo knives had stout blades ( likely like mine) to serve the wide variety of tasks that the gaucho would require his knife to perform and complains about modern factory criollo knives having thin stock blades. I am curious about the blade measurements of more vintage criollo knives.

Interesting initiative, CelloDan . From what I've seen, there's quite a bit of variation. I don't own a caliper, but below I provide the rough measurements of the antique and vintage examples I've shown in this thread, which are pictured together here for everyone's convenience:

1. Abramo Eberle & Co., c. 1960, Brazil: blade length: 12.5 cm; thickness: ~2mm near the bolster, ~0.5 mm near the tip.
2. No maker's name, but marked Superior Quality, c. 1930, Germany: blade length: 14.3 cm; thickness: ~4.5 mm near the bolster, ~1mm near the tip.
3. Unmarked, c. 1920, probably Germany or Belgium: blade length: 15 cm (though original tip had broken); thickness: ~3mm near the bolster, ~1mm near the tip.
4. Unmarked, but probably Scholberg, c. 1920, probably Belgium or France: blade length: 17.2 cm; thickness: ~3.7mm near the bolster, ~1mm near the tip
5. No maker's name, but marked D.R.G.M., c. 1930, Germany: blade length: 20.8 cm; ~3.5 at the base, ~1mm near the tip
6. Atahualpa, c. 1960, Argentina: blade length: 23.2 cm; thickness: ~6mm near the bolster, ~2 mm near the tip.

This is of course strictly anecdotal, and not all subtypes are equally represented -- to say nothing of the fact that the tip measurements must be taken with a minuscule grain of salt, due to how difficult the false edges made things without a caliper. However, the common denominator is that all blades taper quite noticeably, although the Atahualpa one is fairly stout even close to the tip. For comparison, below I show the spine of the latter knife next to that of an old Sabatier, which measures roughly the same at the base but tapers much more aggressively:

From what I've seen online, it would appear that the stoutest blades tended to be the German and Argentinian ones, at least for verijeros and puñales. One of these days I can also share the measurements of a Sheffield example I procured recently -- in addition to some pictures for everyone's visual enjoyment, of course!

 

[CelloDan]

Some measurements taken from older blades

below I provide the rough measurements of the antique and vintage examples I've shown in this thread

Thank you gentleman for the info. Great to see the group pics as well

After poking around with the search function on BF I was able to find one of the posts I had referred earlier. It dates back to 2005. The poster is fellow forumite from
He was quite active until about 4 years ago. I am hoping he one day drops by and shares some of his cuchillos criollos with us

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/boker-arbolito-gaucho-knives.344038/post-3034438

I've used lots of Arbolito "Gaucho" knives over the years. They are a modern version of puñales and verijeros, used by gauchos.
Old Arbolito (Böker) blades were of excelent quality, they are very coveted by Argentinian knifemakers and rural workers, they have an almost legendary fame. All throughout our literature, whenever there is a knife fight between two gauchos, you'll find a mention of an Arbolito blade.

The modern blades are not half as good as the old ones, but they are still quite good. Unlickily, modern Argentinians use them as barbecue knives, instead of the tough work knives they are supossed to be, so the manufacturer started to make blades thinner and weaker.

The knives can be bought in stainless or carbon steel. I usually favour stainless, because of the lower maintenance, but Böker only offers the traditional "thick spine" in carbon steel. The tangs on all the blades are quite strong, although I mostly use the small blades (4 to 6 inches) so I can't really say how tough the bigger ones are. I guess I would choose another design if I wanted a blade over 6 inches to use as a camp knife, puñales aren't supossed to be much longer than that.

The small and medium models make great users and take quite a beating, although the tips are sometimes a bit fragile. They are easy to sharpen and really take a keen edge. You can get the blades and make your own handles, which I like a lot (it's really easy to get a nice looking stag or wood handle).

Another great source for "gaucho" blades is Herder of Solingen. I've been using one of their criollo blades for years.