Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America

[Trubetzkoy]

The knife you were asking about was made by F. Herder prior to WWII.
The lion's head handle was cast from a solid piece of steel (not aluminum) and has a bit of weight at just under one half pound for the complete knife.
The entire knife measures out at 11-1/2 inches with a blade length of 7 inches.
Yes, the lion head pommel is seen on some other fixed-blade and Bowie-type knives, but not commonly seen on Gaucho knives.

Very interesting piece, especially now knowing the handle is solid steel (I reckon rostfrei, correct?). Again, I had seen other lion-pommel patterns in German knives, but not that one. Here's a couple I've taken from past listings (both patterns that I've also seen in later "Korium" daggers, in aluminum):

 

[CelloDan]

I ordered another cheap one with steep shipping. Guayabera and Mora. 8.5" overall, I'm guessing a 4.5" blade.

Looking forward to it Jer !
I searched for “Guayabera y Mora” and found a couple pictures.
Google is not helping me find much more right now.

I keep looking at @maxipescie ’s gorgeous Damascus blades. Does anyone have any practical experience with them? Will they realistically sharpen, hold an edge, and perform comparably with a regular good old fashioned carbon steel blade, or are they more of a “barbecue knife?” Not that I expect I’ll ever use a gaucho knife as rigorously as CelloDan does (thank you so much for your pictures and commentary in this thread!) but I like to know that I can, if I need or want to.

I do not own a criollo in damascus, in fact I have never owned any knife with a damascus blade.

I have no doubt however that the cuchillos criollos in Damascus are just as good, performance wise as the mono steel ones

Most of the best contemporary artisan cutlers in Argentina and Brazil are making really beautiful criollos with stunning intricate patterns.

I personally prefer the plain and simple carbon mono steel blades.

This is not because of performance reasons but rather out of my desire to follow the traditions of old gauchos as close as possible.

I even asked for a wooden handle from a native tree to Argentina and passed on the stunning and beautiful stabilized wood burl handles.

I also swore to never ever clean or flitz the patina of my Verijero

A patina would likely soon start to obscure the beauty of a Damascus blade so cleaning it may be required to make the pattern pop again.

And of course, the plain blades are more economical as well.

Having said all this there is one Damascus pattern that has got me very excited as it checks all the aesthetic and beauty centers in my brain.

It is called “River of Fire” and is really incredible !!!


I just went for a little walk with Verijero by my side and took this photo.

The traditional mechanism used to open the doors of the locks in the Rideau Waterway

 

[screened porch]

Looking forward to it Jer !
I searched for “Guayabera y Mora” and found a couple pictures.

The shipping label has been created in Virginia! I think this one is really going to arrive. Anticipated for Thursday, though USPS is still waiting to receive it.

 

[kamagong]

I keep looking at @maxipescie ’s gorgeous Damascus blades. Does anyone have any practical experience with them? Will they realistically sharpen, hold an edge, and perform comparably with a regular good old fashioned carbon steel blade, or are they more of a “barbecue knife?” Not that I expect I’ll ever use a gaucho knife as rigorously as CelloDan does (thank you so much for your pictures and commentary in this thread!) but I like to know that I can, if I need or want to.

I do not own a criollo in damascus, in fact I have never owned any knife with a damascus blade.

I have no doubt however that the cuchillos criollos in Damascus are just as good, performance wise as the mono steel ones

Most of the best contemporary artisan cutlers in Argentina and Brazil are making really beautiful criollos with stunning intricate patterns.

I personally prefer the plain and simple carbon mono steel blades.

This is not because of performance reasons but rather out of my desire to follow the traditions of old gauchos as close as possible.

I even asked for a wooden handle from a native tree to Argentina and passed on the stunning and beautiful stabilized wood burl handles.

I also swore to never ever clean or flitz the patina of my Verijero

A patina would likely soon start to obscure the beauty of a Damascus blade so cleaning it may be required to make the pattern pop again.

And of course, the plain blades are more economical as well.

Having said all this there is one Damascus pattern that has got me very excited as it checks all the aesthetic and beauty centers in my brain.

It is called “River of Fire” and is really incredible !!!

Great question. I've long wanted a damascus bladed knife. But damascus steel doesn't offer any advantages in utility over modern monosteels. You get damascus because you appreciate the artistry involved.

Should I ever get a knife in damascus it would remain a safe queen. CelloDan is right, patina would eventually mask the pattern on a damascus blade. Cleaning it would not help. In order to revive the pattern, the blade would have to be re-etched.

When you do order your damascus knife from Maxi, please remember to post it here. We appreciate cuchillos criollos of all types. Plus you would have the distinction of being the first one in this thread with a damascus gaucho knife.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I also swore to never ever clean or flitz the patina of my Verijero A patina would likely soon start to obscure the beauty of a Damascus blade so cleaning it may be required to make the pattern pop again.

CelloDan is right, patina would eventually mask the pattern on a damascus blade. Cleaning it would not help. In order to revive the pattern, the blade would have to be re-etched.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the case. As far as I know, the whole point of "proper" damascus steel (in the modern sense of pattern-welded steel) is that one of the steels being welded (typically an alloy containing nickel) won't oxidize, so its color won't change during the etching process, thereby producing the desired contrastive pattern. This property should make damascus steel patinate differentially too, with one steel keeping its color or at least changing it at a much slower rate than the other. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Arathol]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's the case. As far as I know, the whole point of "proper" damascus steel (in the modern sense of pattern-welded steel) is that one of the steels being welded (typically an alloy containing nickel) won't oxidize, so its color won't change during the etching process, thereby producing the desired contrastive pattern. This property should make damascus steel patinate differentially too, with one steel keeping its color or at least changing it at a much slower rate than the other. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

In time with use the pattern will fade. It can be brought back fairly easily with a bit work.
Before, you can see how the pattern has faded

After the pattern had been restored

 

[Trubetzkoy]

In time with use the pattern will fade. It can be brought back fairly easily with a bit work.

I see! Good to know, as I've never owned a damascus knife myself. Just out of curiosity: How much time and frequency of use did it take to get to the condition shown in the first picture?

 

[Arathol]

I see! Good to know, as I've never owned a damascus knife myself. Just out of curiosity: How much time and frequency of use did it take to get to the condition shown in the first picture?

I bought the knife new in 1990. I have used it occasionally since then but not a lot. What you see in the picture though happened in a matter of a few weeks of me carrying and using the knife. Damascus is not really any different than any other steel when it comes to patina. Carbon steel based Damascus will stain / oxidize in a manner according to what steel its made from, and in a fairly short time the pattern will fade from view. However, a couple minutes with some 600 or 800 grit paper and a few minutes in the etch bath brings it right back, so it not that big of a deal.
There are modern Damascus blades made from stainless steels that don't fade so fast.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I bought the knife new in 1990. I have used it occasionally since then but not a lot. What you see in the picture though happened in a matter of a few weeks of me carrying and using the knife. Damascus is not really any different than any other steel when it comes to patina. Carbon steel based Damascus will stain / oxidize in a manner according to what steel its made from, and in a fairly short time the pattern will fade from view. However, a couple minutes with some 600 or 800 grit paper and a few minutes in the etch bath brings it right back, so it not that big of a deal.
There are modern Damascus blades made from stainless steels that don't fade so fast.

Thanks. I had assumed the nickel content gave the lighter steel "stainless" properties. But as the Germans say: "Again what learn!"

 

[Arathol]

Thanks. I had assumed the nickel content gave the lighter steel "stainless" properties. But as the Germans say: "Again what learn!"

It doesn't always have nickel content though.....

 

[Trubetzkoy]

It doesn't always have nickel content though.....

Right. I just seemed to remember that it was one of the main go-to options for Damascus due its response during quenching, at least compared to chrome alloys. My metallurgic knowledge is very limited, though, so I'm not really aware of the alternatives.

 

[CelloDan]

A couple of steels used for carbon damascus that I have seen mentioned by criollo makers are 1070 ( or 1095 ) with 15n20 which is similar to 1070 but with a bit of nickel added.

I have not yet been able to keep a safe queen knife as sooner or later I yield to temptation and use it lol

I suspect that if one day I get a criollo in damascus it will only be a safe queen temporarily… the good thing about it is that I’ll get to experience first hand the changes in the damascus steel as I use it

Random criollo picture for the day

In the process of making pizza outdoors right now and my “china” is putting Verijero to use
Pics later if successful

 

[CelloDan]

 

[Trubetzkoy]

That pizza looks killer!

 

[CelloDan]

That pizza looks killer!

Gracias !

My original plan was to make them in a bit more “primitive “ way and cook them on rocks by the campfire.

Yesterday, on a different location I had found a campfire spot a little out of the way where someone had had a fire before.

I searched for rocks and started to build a sort of oven where heat would radiate from below and above.

I then noticed a tick on my hand

I went back to my better half by the boat and a couple hours later went back to finish building my “ rock oven”

This time soon after I found TWO ticks on me

THAT’S IT !!! , I decided to forget about gaucho pizza.

I am happy things worked out well today

Sooner or later I shall have pizza ala rock though

 

[screened porch]

Sooner or later I shall have pizza ala rock though

Maybe after a bushfire would be safe?

USPS is still awaiting my new criollo, despite the 3-day-old shipping label.

Here's one I do have:

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Lately I've been mopey that I don't own any gaucho-style knives by Herder. Recently, when I came across an old, unissued bayonet/dagger blade by them, I decided to change this and make myself a Herder facón.

I believe it to be from around the WW1 period, but perhaps H herder will have a better idea. In any case, I dig it, and I'd say I was able to reach a very reasonable agreement with the seller as far as the price is concerned.

As for the handle in the first pic, I took it from an old (but not too old) Atahualpa fork, and it's what I originally wanted to use for the project. However, seeing it next to the blade, I think I'll probably wait until I find something more suitable -- slimmer and with a more understated elegance to it. We'll see. Any suggestions for the guard are welcome.

 

[screened porch]

I just decided to not buy the CS Facon at a great price with free shipping. It doesn't bother me if the name is inapt, or that it isn't much more Argentinian than I am. What put me off is that it's made in India, and I have enough big knives from India to suspect that quality might be variable. If it were made in China, I'd know it was made in a modern factory.
Also I have that 10" Henckels Twin that I think is already impractically large, and it's only .025 mm thinner than the CS, so the CS wouldn't be giving me much additional beefiness.
(And I could buy two other things I'm looking at instead.)

My new Guyabera and Mora is still sitting on its shipping label in Virginia.

 

[Trubetzkoy]

I just decided to not buy the CS Facon at a great price with free shipping. It doesn't bother me if the name is inapt, or that it isn't much more Argentinian than I am. What put me off is that it's made in India, and I have enough big knives from India to suspect that quality might be variable. If it were made in China, I'd know it was made in a modern factory.
Also I have that 10" Henckels Twin that I think is already impractically large, and it's only .025 mm thinner than the CS, so the CS wouldn't be giving me much additional beefiness.
(And I could buy two other things I'm looking at instead.)

I'd regard that as a wise decision, my friend. Again, good things come to those who wait -- especially when it comes to gaucho knives and Virginia shipping labels.

 

[kamagong]

Lately I've been mopey that I don't own any gaucho-style knives by Herder. Recently, when I came across an old, unissued bayonet/dagger blade by them, I decided to change this and make myself a Herder facón.

I believe it to be from around the WW1 period, but perhaps H herder will have a better idea. In any case, I dig it, and I'd say I was able to reach a very reasonable agreement with the seller as far as the price is concerned.

As for the handle in the first pic, I took it from an old (but not too old) Atahualpa fork, and it's what I originally wanted to use for the project. However, seeing it next to the blade, I think I'll probably wait until I find something more suitable -- slimmer and with a more understated elegance to it. We'll see. Any suggestions for the guard are welcome.

That is very cool. I suggest keeping the blade bare until the right handle for it presents itself. In the meantime you can start thinking about what you want to use for a guard for your facón.

I just decided to not buy the CS Facon at a great price with free shipping. It doesn't bother me if the name is inapt, or that it isn't much more Argentinian than I am. What put me off is that it's made in India, and I have enough big knives from India to suspect that quality might be variable. If it were made in China, I'd know it was made in a modern factory.
Also I have that 10" Henckels Twin that I think is already impractically large, and it's only .025 mm thinner than the CS, so the CS wouldn't be giving me much additional beefiness.
(And I could buy two other things I'm looking at instead.)

My new Guyabera and Mora is still sitting on its shipping label in Virginia.

Variable is a good way of putting it Jer. No need for you to bother with the CS I think. You already have excellent examples of gaucho knives, so you can afford to wait until the right big one comes along.