Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America

[screened porch]

Somebody just got a nice big one cheap.
Bigger than mine.

 

[screened porch]

I'm so svelte, though, that a 12" blade would get me hung up in the underbrush.
Must be practical.

 

[CelloDan]

Hola gauchos

We are back at the marina for our 11th consecutive night aboard our little Serena ️on Georgian Bay.

Early tomorrow morning we shall load her up on the trailer and start our 7 hour drive home.

It was an unforgettable adventure.
Our bodies ache, our faces are sunburned and we are feeling quite tired but none of it matters as we are bringing back home so many wonderful memories of lived experiences out in nature

Serena got a few new dings and scratches but hey she is not a grand piano after all

Boat patina is what I call it

I’ll catch up when we get home.

Oh, we did get another chance at steak done the right way

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Riddle me this -- When is a gaucho knife not a cuchillo criollo?

Hard to say for sure, as these terms are rather arbitrary and don't even always reflect the everyday usage of the words they are made of. For example, in Spanish in general, cuchillo covers pretty much any kind of knife (except most folding knives according to Peninsular usage). In other words, in the common language, cuchillo is a hypernym (excuse the jargon) of nouns such as daga and puñal. However, in Domenech's terminology, cuchillo stands in privative opposition (excuse the jargon again) to daga, facón, and cuchilla -- that is, contrary to what is the case in common usage, Domenech considers dagas (as well as facones and cuchillas) as non-cuchillos.

If we stick to Domenech's terminology in Spanish and ignore common usage, and if we take the English term gaucho knife as a generic term for any type or subtype of knife traditionally used by gauchos, I think it follows that any of the types of knives mentioned in Domenech's A short essay ... can, in principle, be gaucho knives. (We must bear in mind, however, that gauchos in the strict sense are said to not have typically owned fancy pieces featuring precious metals or chiseling, though of course exceptions exist.) On the other hand, and now answering your question directly, dagas, facones, and cuchillas of the kinds traditionally used by gauchos would, naturally, be gaucho knives, but they would not (in Domenech's terminology) be cuchillos criollos. (They could be referred to, more generically, as armas o herramientas criollas 'creole tools or weapon,' since gauchos are by definition creoles.)

I've read that article C.D. has linked for us more than once, but I still go glassy eyed. I think cuchillo criollo is a cover term for any knife used by criollos. Including cuchillas?
Criollo = creole = mixed race, if I understand correctly. So maybe the non-gentry are assumed to be mixed race? So cuchillos criollos are plain folks' knives?

Things get even more complicated here. Yes, it makes sense to assume that any knife of a type traditionally used by South American creoles could be referred to as a cuchillo criollo. However, in this thread, which is about a 19th-century English knife made for export to Argentina which is almost identical to a puñal owned by Argentine military and political figure Juan Lavalle, Domenech (posting as Cnel Dagger) wrote that the knife in question was not a cuchillo criollo, but could be classified as an English-made daga mediterránea 'mediterranean dagger,' in accordance with American collectors' usage. Of course, this would contradict Domenech's own terminological proposal, according to which dagas are not cuchillos.

Not referring to the knife in the aforementioned thread as a cuchillo criollo would be consistent with your idea that cuchillos criollos are plain folks' knives. However, the term criollo denotes any person of European descent born in Spanish-colonized Latin American territory, including aristocrats like Lavalle. Therefore, the only explanation I can think of for Domenech's post is that, for him, a cuchillo criollo is not just any knife used by South American gauchos or creoles, but one that was designed specifically for the South American market (like many of the models made by German brands such as Böker and Herder, for instance). We'd have to ask Domenech directly to be sure, though.

---------
I hope this makes some sense .

 

[herder]

Hard to say for sure, as these terms are rather arbitrary and don't even always reflect the everyday usage of the words they are made of. For example, in Spanish in general, cuchillo covers pretty much any kind of knife (except most folding knives according to Peninsular usage). In other words, in the common language, cuchillo is a hypernym (excuse the jargon) of nouns such as daga and puñal. However, in Domenech's terminology, cuchillo stands in privative opposition (excuse the jargon again) to daga, facón, and cuchilla -- that is, contrary to what is the case in common usage, Domenech considers dagas (as well as facones and cuchillas) as non-cuchillos.

If we stick to Domenech's terminology in Spanish and ignore common usage, and if we take the English term gaucho knife as a generic term for any type or subtype of knife traditionally used by gauchos, I think it follows that any of the types of knives mentioned in Domenech's A short essay ... can, in principle, be gaucho knives. (We must bear in mind, however, that gauchos in the strict sense are said to not have typically owned fancy pieces featuring precious metals or chiseling, though of course exceptions exist.) On the other hand, and now answering your question directly, dagas, facones, and cuchillas of the kinds traditionally used by gauchos would, naturally, be gaucho knives, but they would not (in Domenech's terminology) be cuchillos criollos. (They could be referred to, more generically, as armas o herramientas criollas 'creole tools or weapon,' since gauchos are by definition creoles.)


Things get even more complicated here. Yes, it makes sense to assume that any knife of a type traditionally used by South American creoles could be referred to as a cuchillo criollo. However, in this thread, which is about a 19th-century English knife made for export to Argentina which is almost identical to a puñal owned by Argentine military and political figure Juan Lavalle, Domenech (posting as Cnel Dagger) wrote that the knife in question was not a cuchillo criollo, but could be classified as an English-made daga mediterránea 'mediterranean dagger,' in accordance with American collectors' usage. Of course, this would contradict Domenech's own terminological proposal, according to which dagas are not cuchillos.

Not referring to the knife in the aforementioned thread as a cuchillo criollo would be consistent with your idea that cuchillos criollos are plain folks' knives. However, the term criollo denotes any person of European descent born in Spanish-colonized Latin American territory, including aristocrats like Lavalle. Therefore, the only explanation I can think of for Domenech's post is that, for him, a cuchillo criollo is not just any knife used by South American gauchos or creoles, but one that was designed specifically for the South American market (like many of the models made by German brands such as Böker and Herder, for instance). We'd have to ask Domenech directly to be sure, though.

---------
I hope this makes some sense .

Trubetzkoy, well thought out and presented.

Here is a recent purchase of opportunity. While this knife was found in an antique store, it's certainly not very old.
It has a blade stamp which bears the name "Acero Solingen Guazu Bira" circling some type of a deer's head.
I know little more of this company other than a quick google search. It appears to be a decent knife overall.

 

[CelloDan]

Cello Dan I remembered I also have a knife from Argentina, from the "Restaurant La Cabana". On the blade inside a big diamond shape is a figure that looks like a radio antenna, a pole with several diamonds on top of it, and at the base it says "Rund Funk". Outside the big diamond it says "Industria Argentina". It came in a embossed leather sheath, but not sure what the figure on the sheath is supposed to be? My Father wrote on the back of the sheath "Buenos Aires Aug 14, 1972" so I know when he got it. I googled the restaurant and several photos of the knife showed up. John

I searched the knife and found several pictures as well John
From what I read "La Cabaña" is a famous restaurant in Argentina since the 1930's

This one's big brother should be arriving in a week or so.

Another one Jer ?
Yeap, we definitely need a family picture when it arrives !
Congrats

Fifteen, maybe twenty years ago, Boker offered a sodbuster that they called a gaucho knife.

Oh my , really Boker ?

I think CelloDan often goes nomad on La Serena during the summer months.

Thanks for the chuckle mi amigo
We arrived yesterday from our 11 day trip on Georgian Bay and now we are scrambling to work for 3 days and go out again this weekend

Hard to say for sure, as these terms are rather arbitrary and don't even always reflect the everyday usage of the words they are made of. For example, in Spanish in general, cuchillo covers pretty much any kind of knife (except most folding knives according to Peninsular usage). In other words, in the common language, cuchillo is a hypernym (excuse the jargon) of nouns such as daga and puñal. However, in Domenech's terminology, cuchillo stands in privative opposition (excuse the jargon again) to daga, facón, and cuchilla -- that is, contrary to what is the case in common usage, Domenech considers dagas (as well as facones and cuchillas) as non-cuchillos.

If we stick to Domenech's terminology in Spanish and ignore common usage, and if we take the English term gaucho knife as a generic term for any type or subtype of knife traditionally used by gauchos, I think it follows that any of the types of knives mentioned in Domenech's A short essay ... can, in principle, be gaucho knives. (We must bear in mind, however, that gauchos in the strict sense are said to not have typically owned fancy pieces featuring precious metals or chiseling, though of course exceptions exist.) On the other hand, and now answering your question directly, dagas, facones, and cuchillas of the kinds traditionally used by gauchos would, naturally, be gaucho knives, but they would not (in Domenech's terminology) be cuchillos criollos. (They could be referred to, more generically, as armas o herramientas criollas 'creole tools or weapon,' since gauchos are by definition creoles.)


Things get even more complicated here. Yes, it makes sense to assume that any knife of a type traditionally used by South American creoles could be referred to as a cuchillo criollo. However, in this thread, which is about a 19th-century English knife made for export to Argentina which is almost identical to a puñal owned by Argentine military and political figure Juan Lavalle, Domenech (posting as Cnel Dagger) wrote that the knife in question was not a cuchillo criollo, but could be classified as an English-made daga mediterránea 'mediterranean dagger,' in accordance with American collectors' usage. Of course, this would contradict Domenech's own terminological proposal, according to which dagas are not cuchillos.

Not referring to the knife in the aforementioned thread as a cuchillo criollo would be consistent with your idea that cuchillos criollos are plain folks' knives. However, the term criollo denotes any person of European descent born in Spanish-colonized Latin American territory, including aristocrats like Lavalle. Therefore, the only explanation I can think of for Domenech's post is that, for him, a cuchillo criollo is not just any knife used by South American gauchos or creoles, but one that was designed specifically for the South American market (like many of the models made by German brands such as Böker and Herder, for instance). We'd have to ask Domenech directly to be sure, though.

---------
I hope this makes some sense .

Thanks for sharing this information ! I appreciate your insights !
As Neal stated it is well thought out and presented.

ere is a recent purchase of opportunity. While this knife was found in an antique store, it's certainly not very old.
It has a blade stamp which bears the name "Acero Solingen Guazu Bira" circling some type of a deer's head.
I know little more of this company other than a quick google search. It appears to be a decent knife overall.

Nice one Neal
I wrote to an acquaintance in Argentina and sent him the pic of the knife.
He told me it is of good quality and made in Uruguay. The round "boton" and the "silverwork typical of that region.
The factory, he stated,is the second one in importance after "Fanacu".

My search of it with google turned up of results in portuguese as well so I initially thought it was from Brazil.

Riddle me this --

When is a gaucho knife not a cuchillo criollo?

I would like to add to this discussion that when reading the websites, posts on social media by knife makers and talking to folks in Argentina about a "cuchillo criollo" or just "criollo" it is understood that it is in reference to the traditional "puñal.

Also the longer puñales appear to be the most popular . If I am not mistaken, my Verijero was one of the first requests that Maxi got about a smaller "criollo"

I don't think there is a consensus as to when a puñal becomes a verijero. I read that verijeros are "less than 15 cm" but was also told by a knimaker they are "no more than 12 cm"
I makes sense to me to think if the knife is small enough that can be confortable carried in the front or "verijas" ( groin area) then it is a verijero. If it's not confortable and has to be carried in the back then is a puñal ( but that is just my logic )

I'll leave you with a couple pics of my Verijero taken on the French river in Ontario by the Recollet falls that we reached after an enjoyable hike.
It is said that a few Recollet father missionaries drowned in this area.

Jesuits missionaries also travelled to northern Argentina and Paraguay. There they learned about the yerba mate from the indigenous Guarani people.
While at first the fathers did not approve of yerba mate they then embraced it and started cultivating and domesticating the plant.

 

[screened porch]

Welcome back.

I'm not comfortable carrying any knife in my groin area, so I guess they're all punales to me.

 

[CelloDan]

I was thinking today about the different types of "cuchillos criollos " and the terminology used to describe them.

Of the types mentioned in Domenech's essay there are two of them, in my opinion ( which is subject to change ) that are not "cuchillos" or "knives" in the strict sense of the word but rather dedicated fighting weapons.

One is the "caronero" which is "almost a true sword" as Domenech describes it and the other the double edged "daga"

The "facon" although a fighting weapon was also used extensible in every day tasks were a cuchillo would be used. Because of its single edge, a gaucho would be able to grab it by the spine, close to the tip and with skill and dexterity use it as a knife for more delicate tasks such as eating and food prep. It is likely that many gauchos only had a facon and did not have the luxury of a second knife such as puñal or verijero thus their facon would be their "cuchillo", their machete and fighting weapon as well if it came to that.

Facones ( pic from Domenech's essay)

The "cuchilla" is no doubt a "cuchillo", just a female one LOL
Funny thing with latin languages assigning genders to objects

Domenech writes that "Gauchos seemed to find the image of a "pregnant blade" in the curved edge or "belly" of the cuchilla, according to the legend surrounding the origin of the use of a feminine noun to name this type."

My grandma had a cuchilla and likely used it for many decades.

It is interesting that if I show a cuchilla to my Cuban born wife or my brother in law from El Salvador they would both say it is a "cuchillo" and not a "cuchilla".
A cuchilla:

The other knife cuchillo mentioned in the essay is the "cuchillo de campo"
Domench describes it as having "full tang construction with a slab handle, attached by rivets, usually of wood or antler and a false bolster made of brass or nickel silver. The shape of the blade is slimmer and similar to that of the puñal."

Later gauchos, I am getting ready to go "nomad" again this weekend on the vast water pampas riding my faithful Serena

 

[Trubetzkoy]

Of the types mentioned in Domenech's essay there are two of them, in my opinion ( which is subject to change ) that are not "cuchillos" or "knives" in the strict sense of the word but rather dedicated fighting weapons. One is the "caronero" which is "almost a true sword" as Domenech describes it and the other the double edged "daga"

The "facon" although a fighting weapon was also used extensible in every day tasks were a cuchillo would be used. [...] The "cuchilla" is no doubt a "cuchillo", just a female one LOL

I actually went back to Domenech's A short essay ... and realized that he starts by describing cuchillo criollo as the label to "generically term the different types of edged weapons used by gauchos in the past." That's a pretty broad definition, which as far as I can tell should cover all the types discussed in the essay (assuming that by weapons he also wishes to say tools).

Perhaps I got mixed up between Domenech's terminology and some common distinctions one finds online in videos and forums, as seen in the following figure, which I've run into many times:

Note that the term cuchillo is used only for what would appear to be a puñal in Domenech's terminology (though I agree that the cutoff point to distinguish between puñales and verijeros is funky -- for instance, I don't think anyone would wear a knife with a 8-9" inch blade in the groin, and yet according to Domenech that would be a verijero). Thus, according to the classification in the figure, one would have to conclude that verijeros, dagas, facones, and caroneros are not cuchillos.

In any case, as Dan already suggested, when discussing terminologies it's important to keep in mind not only dialectal differences, but also the crucial difference between the common language and the language of knife collectors or nerds like us . Indeed, most people in Spanish-speaking urban areas would probably refer to cuchillas simply as cuchillos, reserving the former term only for certain types of blades (as opposed to edged tools or weapons as a whole). On the other hand, while collectors tend to consider dagas (double-edged) as non-cuchillos (in accordance with the Royal Spanish Academy's definition, by the way, which defines cuchillo as 'Cutting instrument consisting of a metal blade with a single cutting edge and a handle'), most people would use the latter term as the hypernym of the former (which now I see is Domenech's preference too, at least nominally).

 

[screened porch]

I admire all the research, though I doubt normal people have ever cared about collector terminology.
I'd hate to try to assign names to modern North American blade shapes based on what makers and dealers call them.

My new big Juca is still sitting on its shipping label in Ohio.

I've never seen an alpaca with more than a seven-inch blade, and that was only some of the narrow Brazilians, and suddenly big alpacas with thick spines are out there at mere mortal prices.
I've bought two and passed on one in the past couple of weeks.
That third one went way too cheap, but I'd spent too much on the second one.

My big Atahualpa again:

 

[screened porch]

Your order is out for delivery today.​

Woo hoo!

 

[screened porch]

 

[kamagong]

That's a beauty Jer. Any idea as to its age?

 

[screened porch]

That's a beauty Jer. Any idea as to its age?

Thank you!
Not a clue as to its age. Somebody at Juca might know when they did the crosswise grinding. Somebody might know when the Industria Argentina stamp went on the throat of the sheath instead of around the Juca stamp on the blade. But not me.

 

[CelloDan]

Thank you!
Not a clue as to its age. Somebody at Juca might know when they did the crosswise grinding. Somebody might know when the Industria Argentina stamp went on the throat of the sheath instead of around the Juca stamp on the blade. But not me.

Congrats Jer

I wrote to the Juca factory in Tandil regarding information about its approximate age.
Hope they answer us.

How many gaucho knives in your collection with this one ?

 

[Arathol]

Thank you!
Not a clue as to its age.

If I understand the chronology right, the stamp dates from the early to mid 1960s, maybe a bit later.

 

[screened porch]

Congrats Jer

I wrote to the Juca factory in Tandil regarding information about its approximate age.
Hope they answer us.

How many gaucho knives in your collection with this one ?

That would be great! Thank you.
I'll have to count them.

If I understand the chronology right, the stamp dates from the early to mid 1960s, maybe a bit later.

Thanks!
It also says Industria Argentina over and under Juca, I see.
I've cleaned the tiny oblong mark a little more, but no matter how hard I squint it doesn't look like "800" for silver. It looks like a bunch of something tied in the middle, maybe with one or more letters or numbers underneath.
The metal cleaned better with silver polish than brass polish, but there was verdigris between the locket and the bolster, which kind of rules out silver anyway.

How many do I have?
Argentina-wise, just the large and small Jucas and Atahualpas, the "Argetinian side sword" which is maybe a faca, the cheap shiny one which is unmarked but must have been described as Argentinian (so it must be true), and those two 1045s that really gave me what I paid for.
So eight if I don't feel critical about the cheap ones and don't rule out the big one as a different animal.

Brazilian, only four Eberles, which was the brand and style I saw first, and the hand-made garniture from the sixties that includes a steel in the sheath.
I say they are Eberles because they all have the twisted bugle mark. I don't have any Elmos with the helmet mark, which appear identical to the Eberles, so maybe they're a line of Eberle?

So 14, if I count the Nieto gaucho barbecue knife. It may have been made in Spain for export, or it may have been meant for domestic fantasists.
Five if I count just the ones I take seriously.

Except I was forgetting the rope-ringed putative modern Juca cosmetic second, So fifteen or six.
Or 13 / 8 if I take the Eberles without tourist designs seriously, or 11 / 10 if I take all the Eberles seriously, and they are all perfectly good knives.

If I wanted to be taken seriously by serious people at a serious asado, I might stick that Henckels Twinworks under my belt. The 10" chef knife with the strong bolster and double ended taper that I ground the steeling waist out of. Even though it is slab-handled instead of through-tanged.

I don't count Uncle Don's Brazilian faca de ponta, because that's a bandit knife.

 

[CelloDan]

Hola gauchos

Today I got a package in the mail and upon opening it I realized that I finally got to own a Boker Arbolito Gaucho knife

A Boker Gaucho Sodbuster that is

Along with it was a silver dollar canadian coin from 1966

Gracias kamagong !!!
Your thoughtful gesture made my day !!!
I will treasure both

Cuchillos criollos content

The coin could be the start of my collection for my "tirador"

 

[screened porch]

I think this one is silver-plated brass. That would explain the black stuff coming off with silver polish, and the presence of verdigris.
Also the undecorated bit at the top of the scabbard looks like brass, in some light at least.

I've been sharpening it. I think it was pre-owned rather than used.

 

[Arathol]

I think this one is silver-plated brass. That would explain the black stuff coming off with silver polish, and the presence of verdigris.

Probably Alpaca silver, also known as nickel silver, which is a copper alloy. Thats where the verdigris is coming from. Alpaca is fairly common in knives from S America.