GEC Quality Control Issues

Nice acrylic on that Abilene Bob! I can't make up my mind between that and the Orange Osage...then there's the Blackwood...and I don't usually go for large three blade knives. But there's something about that one.....
 
Though I like what GEC are doing, GEC knives form a very small percentage of the knives I own. I have seven GEC knives altogether. Since returning them to the factory is not easy for me, I want to feel confident that I'm going to get a decent knife without flaws I can't easily rectify myself. To try and protect myself further I buy from dealers I think I can trust.

The first GEC knife I bought was a 15 Boy's Knife with a main blade that couldn't be opened because the kick had been overground. It clearly hadn't been inspected properly, if at all, and it went back to the dealer.

The second GEC knife I bought was a 66 Serpentine Jack. Perfect in every way except for a very dull edge.

I've certainly not been averse to criticising GEC where I think it's warranted, but I think it's important to tell people the whole picture.

None of my GEC knives have any blade play at all, if they did I'd say so, as I think would others here. The impression I get from reading the posts here, and from my own experiences, is that GEC have had some shortcomings with regard to QC, and also with one or two of their designs, but that they're getting better. Most of us are knife users, we discuss our purchases honestly, and we respect the opinions and experiences of others. I find that to a large extent, if you post respectfully here, you'll be treated with respect. If you post disrespectfully, other posters have every right to judge you on those posts, and they will.

Sorry you've had so many bad experiences dma65, glad to hear it's not put you off GEC, I'm not sure I'd feel the same in your position. Personally though, I'd still be interested to know how many of the knives with blade play were new knives and how many had been used previously. I know that many here shop on the Bay, but personally I've only had bad experiences there. If you received a GEC knife via that place with blade-play, I think that's something to take up with the vendor first of all. The same if you bought a knife second-hand here, side to side blade-play is easy enough to fix in my experience, but it should certainly be mentioned by the seller.
 
rma100 said:
My experience, and my opinion, is that in Manufacturing, in Retail Sales and certainly in Secondary Sales, Perfection is unattainable. The crux of the matter then becomes, What can a Manufacturer do to minimize imperfection, and what can the Retailers then do to make whole the imperfection that does get through to the customer. Anybody who has been to the GEC Factory, or been around these knives and this Forum, knows that there is a great deal of hand work that goes into building these knives. To quote Bill Howard, if I may, "These knives are built by People, they're not assembled by machines." That also goes for QC, one person, one knife. They work very hard, but cannot achieve perfection. As for Retail Sales, every GEC Distributor, of which I am one, that I have met, worked with or know by reputation only, works just as hard not only to uphold the values of Great Eastern Cutlery, but to provide the best product and buying experience to our customers. If you have a problem, contact your Distributor and IT WILL be made right. We can not achieve perfection either, but we can make a mistake right within reason. As for Secondary Sales, ie EBay, Forum Exchanges and Non Authorized Distributors, this goes back many, many years, Caveat Emptor.

Just to lighten things up a bit,
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These are all very good and practical comments about the manufacturing and distribution process. The essence of this whole discussion, to me, seems to be what is an acceptable standard for a product leaving the factory. I wouldn't think quality control would be that difficult for a company like GEC since they probably don't send out that many knives every single day, or enough for things to "slip through the cracks", so to speak. In their case, and since things are so 'hands on', I'd think it has more to do with them essentially saying 'this is acceptable for us", and if customers have a problem, beyond that, they'll tweak it to a better level....sort of a PR-type thing.

The definition of what the standard should be though, especially for a given price range, can be pretty subjective, and differ quite a bit between consumers and the manufacturer. But ultimately the manufacturer establishes that standard.
 
rma100 said:
My experience, and my opinion, is that in Manufacturing, in Retail Sales and certainly in Secondary Sales, Perfection is unattainable. The crux of the matter then becomes, What can a Manufacturer do to minimize imperfection, and what can the Retailers then do to make whole the imperfection that does get through to the customer. Anybody who has been to the GEC Factory, or been around these knives and this Forum, knows that there is a great deal of hand work that goes into building these knives. To quote Bill Howard, if I may, "These knives are built by People, they're not assembled by machines." That also goes for QC, one person, one knife. They work very hard, but cannot achieve perfection. As for Retail Sales, every GEC Distributor, of which I am one, that I have met, worked with or know by reputation only, works just as hard not only to uphold the values of Great Eastern Cutlery, but to provide the best product and buying experience to our customers. If you have a problem, contact your Distributor and IT WILL be made right. We can not achieve perfection either, but we can make a mistake right within reason. As for Secondary Sales, ie EBay, Forum Exchanges and Non Authorized Distributors, this goes back many, many years, Caveat Emptor.

Just to lighten things up a bit,
Click to expand...

Does that knife wobble so bad it needs a tripod? WOW!

Joking.
 
Jack Black said:
I've certainly not been averse to criticising GEC where I think it's warranted, but I think it's important to tell people the whole picture.

None of my GEC knives have any blade play at all, if they did I'd say so, as I think would others here. The impression I get from reading the posts here, and from my own experiences, is that GEC have had some shortcomings with regard to QC, and also with one or two of their designs, but that they're getting better. Most of us are knife users, we discuss our purchases honestly, and we respect the opinions and experiences of others. I find that to a large extent, if you post respectfully here, you'll be treated with respect. If you post disrespectfully, other posters have every right to judge you on those posts, and they will.
Click to expand...

LCS said:
The essence of this whole discussion, to me, seems to be what is an acceptable standard for a product leaving the factory....

The definition of what the standard should be though, especially for a given price range, can be pretty subjective, and differ quite a bit between consumers and the manufacturer. But ultimately the manufacturer establishes that standard.
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Well said, both of you.

Oddly enough, I am not made skittish by respectful discussions of product quality, as I believe this one has mostly been (including the OP's first post, and the clarifications provided through discussion).

Rather, what often leaves me feeling nervous is vendor input suggesting (intentionally or not) that honest discussions, including those through which enthusiasts/customers often openly re-examine their own comfort levels and expectations regarding price/value, are somehow threatening to a company's very existence.

Everyone has his or her own notions of what is acceptable or what isn't at a given price point, regardless of what goes into the creation thereof. For myself, I don't want to ever feel like I need to "eat" a knife unacceptable to me at $100 (or in retrospect, feel guilty that I didn't make myself accept it) in order to not feel responsible if/when a production company isn't here x number of years from now. ;)

~ P.
 
Hopefully companies can grow from this discussion. Their springs have improved drastically in the past few years.
 
LCS said:
These are all very good and practical comments about the manufacturing and distribution process. The essence of this whole discussion, to me, seems to be what is an acceptable standard for a product leaving the factory. I wouldn't think quality control would be that difficult for a company like GEC since they probably don't send out that many knives every single day, or enough for things to "slip through the cracks", so to speak. In their case, and since things are so 'hands on', I'd think it has more to do with them essentially saying 'this is acceptable for us", and if customers have a problem, beyond that, they'll tweak it to a better level....sort of a PR-type thing.

The definition of what the standard should be though, especially for a given price range, can be pretty subjective, and differ quite a bit between consumers and the manufacturer. But ultimately the manufacturer establishes that standard.
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Actually my comment was meant to be about achieving perfection. Not defining a standard.
 
rma100 said:
Actually my comment was meant to be about achieving perfection. Not defining a standard.
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I understand.

You did, though, mention 'minimizing imperfection', which I would assume has to have a certain standard applied.
 
LCS said:
I understand.

You did, though, mention 'minimizing imperfection', which I would assume has to have a certain standard applied.
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No, You are taking my words out of context. My full quote is available for everyone to read in post #58. You can't take two words out of context. I didn't mention anything like you suggest. Read my statement in its entirety.
 
I apologize if I misunderstood or misconstrued what you said.

You said that perfection was unattainable (agreed) and that the crux of the matter was what can a manufacturer do to minimize imperfection. I don't see how one can do this without establishing a standard for minimal imperfection.

I don't want this healthy discussion to digress into one of semantics and breaking down phrases, and I very much appreciate your input and perspective on the subject.
 
I'm sure they have a Standard of Acceptable Parameters, as do most manufacturers. But achieving Perfect Judgement of those parameters on each individual knife is unattainable. Except maybe by Lasers and Robots.
 
No blade play that I can notice on any of my GECs. My 73 has some gaps between spring and liners that annoyed me once I noticed it, this being a stag version and therefore costly enough I didn't want gaps, but while I can slip a thin sheet of paper through in one or two spots and can see light through when I hold it up to a light, mostly I don't notice (the description I just gave probably makes it sound worse/more noticeable than it really is) and the knife functions just fine. If after more time goes by I see any problems, getting gummed up too often of the life I'll consider sending it in for adjustment, but I'd worry about the stag being ruined or drastically changed.
 
pertinux said:
Rather, what often leaves me feeling nervous is vendor input suggesting (intentionally or not) that honest discussions, including those through which enthusiasts/customers often openly re-examine their own comfort levels and expectations regarding price/value, are somehow threatening to a company's very existence.

Everyone has his or her own notions of what is acceptable or what isn't at a given price point, regardless of what goes into the creation thereof. For myself, I don't want to ever feel like I need to "eat" a knife unacceptable to me at $100 (or in retrospect, feel guilty that I didn't make myself accept it) in order to not feel responsible if/when a production company isn't here x number of years from now. ;)

~ P.
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It makes me nervous as well ;)

Dealers have a little different viewpoint and significantly more inside information. And probably pay a little closer to the "industry" as opposed to the product.

It would surprise me if any dealer sent back more product or offered more constructive crititcism to the factories dealt with than myself. In return, I find myself in a lot of private conversations about the complications and impossibilities of todays products, processes, and customer expectations. But the fact is that it would be very detrimental for a lot of the specifics to make it onto a forum, does not mean that we have to stick our heads in the sand and keep our opinions to ourselves either.

Now nobody can control how an opinion or observation makes you feel; but that doesn't remove the credibility of the comments in the context they were presented. The main point of view I always present is that the buyer has to be happy with the purchase. That doesn't mean I have to agree with his assessment, only his right to be happy.
 
im an incredibly picky person, and out of my nearly 10 GECs of the moment, none have anything resembling blade play or wobble.
 
I think it is maybe both wise and fair for me to discuss some specifics as to why I continue to buy GEC knives despite the issues I have encountered.

1. When they are good, they are absolutely superb. Some of my knives are simply astounding in quality of fit and finish. I have several of the early GEC trappers they made for Schrade (Taylor), the Fire and Ice models, that are absolutely the finest quality trappers I have ever seen, bar none. GEC also seems to have continued creating this pattern style (in the 72 and 73 two blade models) perfectly. I have yet to see any other production maker that comes close to these. In fact, GEC made me love this pattern, when I used to simply think it was ok.

Another example is the very hard to find 3 blade courthouse whittler (62 patten) with the Wharncliffe main blade and coping/pen secondary blades. I have managed to hunt down 6 of these knives, with only one needing to be tightened up (and it was purchased new). I love to whittle and have not found any other knife that comes close to perfection as a whittler.

2. Their stag is simply top notch, as well as their jigged bone. Their attention to detail is second to none when it comes to handle finishes.

3. I love the steel. Once you get the edge sharp, it stays sharp for what seems like an eternity. A few strokes on a strop gets it back up to razor sharp again.

4. Hold one in your hand and you immediately know you are holding something different than just about anything else made out there in the knife world. The heft and balance are just amazing.

I love Case knives, but have not purchased a single Case knife in the last 6 months, but have purchased lots of GEC knives. I decided who made the superior knife based upon my taste and opinion. Perhaps I just felt I wanted it to fit my opinion of perfection, which may be unreasonable.
 
Mike,

The tactical turned slipjoint comment got my attention. I think there is a lot of truth to this. I myself have gone back and forth and through just about all types of knives. I do believe once you really get used to knives that you can adjust with a bolt going back to slipjoints can be a little irritating. I think it could be a headspinner for someone that was only a modern knife user from the start.

I honestly didn't notice blade play on a lot of my tools until I got into sebenza and higher end folders that you really expect a lot more. Then you get used to it no matter what.

I personally went back to modern for a recent steel option but I have noticed less irritation out in the shop peening down pivot pins and refinishing bolsters. I loved learning to do it all, prefer so much about traditionals but I almost feel they could be a tru diehard niche anymore??

I will never leave them behind but I can really appreciate your comment and see it unbiased.

Kevin

knifeswapper said:
The reason blade play is so heavily discussed is because it is so individually percieved. We have folks that have been collecting slipjoints for 50 years that would never say a word about the same movement that would drive a tactical-turned-slipjoint guy crazy. There are folks that would have to noticed it in normal use to say something and there are those that put on their white gloves when they open the box and hold the knife in one hand while gently moving the tip of the blade between the thumb/forefinger of the other looking for discernable movement. Neither are right or wrong; but maybe some didn't read this forum before they came to post on it. If you read here for very long and hated blade movement - who in there right mind would buy a GEC lockback without the tools to run out back and take care of it right quick.

Great Eastern Cutlery has not pefected the joint tension on lockback knives. I can find a little movement using 2nd method above in 30-50% of the lockbacks. Queen's percentage is much higher, but the same guy probably designed those as well. Most patterns, which actually have some snap open / closed, in other brands run a similar percentage in my experience. You either slam the joint tight or shim it. Buck seems to do a really good job finding the happy medium.

Some folks hate play, some hate any daylight in the back, same hate a non-razor factory edge, same hate being happy. We all have that option and since it is our money buying the knife - we all get to decide on our own. But about the 10th knife from a certain maker that I had to send back, I would probably walk away. Unless I just really enjoyed posting on forums about disappointments in knives.

I personally have found play in a factory fresh non-lockback GEC maybe three times in seven years; which would probably equate to 1 in 25,000+. Bill despises open backsprings and slipjoints with play; that is why the backsprings are so stout - so he can pound the joint closed and still have the pressure to get some snap.

The OP has his right to like or dislike what he wants. It is just disheartening when another "lockback blade play" thread opens up as I know it will cost GEC business in a time when they can't afford to be losing business. Despite what the guy on tv says, this economy is killing small companies like GEC by taking away the expendable income of the normal American.
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My GEC made schrade 73 trapper has terrible blade wobble. And I haven't really used it that hard. Kind of disappointing, however all my other GECs are good to go.
 
Anybody with enough time on their hands can pick out flaws and imperfections, still when they're noticeable as to hinder use, or detract from the knife significantly it's a problem. Still, imperfections, are different from a true defect, like excessive play, or ridiculous gaps, or but still a GEC is a production knife, and not subject to the standards some of us expect. A lot of people want custom quality at a production price, as much as I like GEC, that's just not reasonable to expect. Even though GECs are considerably more expensive than other brands, and manufactures, they're production knives. I must be easy to impress, but GEC hasn't made a knife with poor enough fit and finish, for me to send back.
 
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