General Blade Design (Benchmade and Spyderco) -- Post your thoughts--

[AusLoX]

Spyderco just sent out their monthly "Byte" for July. They had some info on this topic.

Hope this helps

"Edge geometry begins with the grind, thickness, and width of the blade and its bevels. For example, a full-flat-ground blade basically has a triangular cross section, with the spine of the blade being the base of the triangle and the two equal-length flat bevels forming the sides. If the planes of the bevels intersected perfectly at the edge (a “zero-ground” edge) it would be extremely acute and sharp, but very weak. Narrower blades, thicker blades, and shorter bevels would all affect the geometry of the triangle and increase the angle at the edge somewhat, but it would still be somewhat weak.

To give the edge greater strength and make the blade easier to produce, the bevels typically don’t converge completely. Instead, they leave a thicker section of steel near the edge. A narrow secondary bevel is then ground at a steeper angle to create the actual cutting edge. The terminal thickness of the steel adjacent to the cutting edge is also a determining factor in the overall edge geometry of the blade.

A full-flat grind with a thin terminal edge thickness creates a very acute angle near the edge and the long, gradual rise of the bevels. This geometry parts the material being cut with minimal friction and offers excellent cutting performance. It also produces a distal taper that reduces the weight of the blade, but also decreases its strength.

If strength is a concern, a partial flat grind—also known as a saber grind—can be used. With this grind, the flat bevels are shorter and the angle near the edge is slightly steeper. This puts more steel behind the edge, but also forces the secondary bevel of the actual cutting edge to a larger angle as well. This geometry parts material more abruptly and creates greater friction during the cut.

In many ways, a hollow grind offers the best of both worlds. Since its bevels are actually concave, it can produce a very thin terminal edge thickness and support an acute cutting edge angle, while still maintaining a thick spine for strength. Hollow-ground blades can also be sharpened many times before the edge wears into the thicker part of the steel. Flat-ground and saber-ground blades reach that point sooner and ultimately must be sharpened at a more obtuse angle."

 

[Sharpening]

Spyderco just sent out their monthly "Byte" for July. They had some info on this topic.

Hope this helps

"Edge geometry begins with the grind, thickness, and width of the blade and its bevels. For example, a full-flat-ground blade basically has a triangular cross section, with the spine of the blade being the base of the triangle and the two equal-length flat bevels forming the sides. If the planes of the bevels intersected perfectly at the edge (a “zero-ground” edge) it would be extremely acute and sharp, but very weak. Narrower blades, thicker blades, and shorter bevels would all affect the geometry of the triangle and increase the angle at the edge somewhat, but it would still be somewhat weak.

To give the edge greater strength and make the blade easier to produce, the bevels typically don’t converge completely. Instead, they leave a thicker section of steel near the edge. A narrow secondary bevel is then ground at a steeper angle to create the actual cutting edge. The terminal thickness of the steel adjacent to the cutting edge is also a determining factor in the overall edge geometry of the blade.

A full-flat grind with a thin terminal edge thickness creates a very acute angle near the edge and the long, gradual rise of the bevels. This geometry parts the material being cut with minimal friction and offers excellent cutting performance. It also produces a distal taper that reduces the weight of the blade, but also decreases its strength.

If strength is a concern, a partial flat grind—also known as a saber grind—can be used. With this grind, the flat bevels are shorter and the angle near the edge is slightly steeper. This puts more steel behind the edge, but also forces the secondary bevel of the actual cutting edge to a larger angle as well. This geometry parts material more abruptly and creates greater friction during the cut.

In many ways, a hollow grind offers the best of both worlds. Since its bevels are actually concave, it can produce a very thin terminal edge thickness and support an acute cutting edge angle, while still maintaining a thick spine for strength. Hollow-ground blades can also be sharpened many times before the edge wears into the thicker part of the steel. Flat-ground and saber-ground blades reach that point sooner and ultimately must be sharpened at a more obtuse angle."

thanks! that reinforces what I was thinking!


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[Sharpening]

I feel as if this thread has been very successful. We've avoided bias while comparing two very highly regarded knife companies! This was very helpful for my understanding, and also should help many other people. I am interested to EDC the 940 and Para to see the edge retention. They are both s30v, so I'll report on what I find out!


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[AusLoX]

I feel as if this thread has been very successful. We've avoided bias while comparing two very highly regarded knife companies! This was very helpful for my understanding, and also should help many other people. I am interested to EDC the 940 and Para to see the edge retention. They are both s30v, so I'll report on what I find out!


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Another thing to look at is the actual edge itself. There are several different styles. Convex edge, chisel, ect.

 

[Mick_1KRR]

Both good knife companies. Haven't read the whole thread but it's simple really, Spydies are generally always thinner blade grinds, FFG's with very fine tips. They cut better than most other knives but are not strong for lateral movement in cutting, tips snap very easy if you use them in that way (which you shouldn't really) right tool for the job. But in this hobby there is more to knives than just cutting, it's the appreciation and general fun factor, or just what you find attractive at the time. I prefer Benchmades currently, i used to prefer Spydies, taste always changes tho. I find Benchmades have a nice balance between strength and cutting ability, love the M390 710 and 940.

 

[Sharpening]

Another thing to look at is the actual edge itself. There are several different styles. Convex edge, chisel, ect.

Could you add more I that? Are you talking about the actual cut on the blade, or the style? I know the blade shapes are different such as clip point, tanto, etc. I haven't heard about a chisel edge though


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[Sharpening]

Both good knife companies. Haven't read the whole thread but it's simple really, Spydies are generally always thinner blade grinds, FFG's with very fine tips. They cut better than most other knives but are not strong for lateral movement in cutting, tips snap very easy if you use them in that way (which you shouldn't really) right tool for the job. But in this hobby there is more to knives than just cutting, it's the appreciation and general fun factor, or just what you find attractive at the time. I prefer Benchmades currently, i used to prefer Spydies, taste always changes tho. I find Benchmades have a nice balance between strength and cutting ability, love the M390 710 and 940.

That's what we discussed in this thread! I love my 940 too. I have a feeling it might hold its edge slightly longer because of the generally thicker blade.


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[bdmicarta]

Interesting- so you are saying that the spiderco knives are better for slicing things, but the full flat bring sacrifices strength? So benchmade makes non full flat grind blades in order to make the blade/tip stronger? Do you think this makes much of a noticeable difference if both blades, let's say, had the exact same shape (one full flat grind, one partial flat grind)?

There are a lot of aspects of blade design and different buyers like different features. Benchmade and Spyderco each make different blade shapes. I have some of each brand that I like. Spyderco blades slice well because they are thin but I sometimes worry about the tips not being strong. My favorite Benchmade shapes are a bit beefier at the tip but still not real thick blades. But there are some other aspects of Spyderco knives that are missing in Benchmade. People have to pick what they like and use it.

 

[Sharpening]

There are a lot of aspects of blade design and different buyers like different features. Benchmade and Spyderco each make different blade shapes. I have some of each brand that I like. Spyderco blades slice well because they are thin but I sometimes worry about the tips not being strong. My favorite Benchmade shapes are a bit beefier at the tip but still not real thick blades. But there are some other aspects of Spyderco knives that are missing in Benchmade. People have to pick what they like and use it.

Good to know. I certainly feel like the tip on my sypderco para is thinner than a hair, but I guess I tell myself it's been designed to go through things. I have a mutual trust with my knife that the blade will handle what I need it to. Let's just wait for the moment that trust is broken haha



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[palonej]

As long as you don't pry or use it like a screwdriver that tip will be fine!!
Hell of a cutter!!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

"In many ways, a hollow grind offers the best of both worlds. Since its bevels are actually concave, it can produce a very thin terminal edge thickness and support an acute cutting edge angle, while still maintaining a thick spine for strength. Hollow-ground blades can also be sharpened many times before the edge wears into the thicker part of the steel. Flat-ground and saber-ground blades reach that point sooner and ultimately must be sharpened at a more obtuse angle."

At the expense of the concavity creating a drastic increase in deflection forces as it begins to thicken. Think of the cross section as T-shaped and you have an exaggerated version of the phenomenon. A hollow ground blade maintains rigidity with a thin geometry at and immediately behind the edge, but you slam into a wall on deep cuts in resistant material and they can't take side loads well. Depth of cut is very important to consider in grind optimization for a given context.

 

[microtech85]

The Benchmade barrage in m390 steel has an amazing blade profile. I have a 940-1 and native 5 and stainless delica with hollow grind and frn with ffg. My friend has the barrage with m390. All of my spydercos slice better than my benchmade. However, the barrage slices just as well as my native 5 if not better. It has a different blade profile than the standard barrage. It is basically a flat grind or maybe a high saber grind. I am not sure what it is but it has a fine edge and keeps its fine razor edge nicer than any other knife I have tried. Also, btw, I became sold on the delica ffg after originally owning the saber grind version. However, after recently purchasing the stainless handle delica, I have learned that I prefer the hollow grind on it. It takes the sharpest edge of any spyderco of benchmade I have ever owned. Plus, it is super easy to sharpen. I think the stainless delica is a great knife that does not seem to get any attention here.

 

[Sharpening]

Depth of cut is very important to consider in grind optimization for a given context.

So you're talking about how deep someone needs to cut? For instance someone who only needs to shallowly cut thin cardboard vs someone who needs to cut thick 10 ply cardboard?


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[Sharpening]

The Benchmade barrage in m390 steel has an amazing blade profile. I have a 940-1 and native 5 and stainless delica with hollow grind and frn with ffg. My friend has the barrage with m390. All of my spydercos slice better than my benchmade. However, the barrage slices just as well as my native 5 if not better. It has a different blade profile than the standard barrage. It is basically a flat grind or maybe a high saber grind. I am not sure what it is but it has a fine edge and keeps its fine razor edge nicer than any other knife I have tried. Also, btw, I became sold on the delica ffg after originally owning the saber grind version. However, after recently purchasing the stainless handle delica, I have learned that I prefer the hollow grind on it. It takes the sharpest edge of any spyderco of benchmade I have ever owned. Plus, it is super easy to sharpen. I think the stainless delica is a great knife that does not seem to get any attention here.

That's interesting about the barrage. What was the blade on it shaped like?


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[palonej]

Like this. BM has many models that have great slicer grinds.
Here are 2. 581 Barrage and the 665. Slicing machines!
Joe

 

[Sharpening]

Like this. BM has many models that have great slicer grinds.
Here are 2. 581 Barrage and the 665. Slicing machines!
Joe

I've seen that blade before! Its good to know that it's good at slicing. It's almost a full flat grind, but it looks like they've made it a little thicker at the top (by the looks of it). Maybe that helps with the strength!


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[Sharpening]

Here are some pictures with the 940 next to the Para.

Notice the spyderco seems thick in the back, but gets very thin at the tip. Benchmade tip is much thicker, with a narrower bade. I still can't figure out the reasons for all the bizzare cuts on the benchmade blade except for a slightly thicker blade tip

It's funny- the spyderco actually makes the benchmade tip look completely dull! I just received it from benchmade yesterday for sharpening (and a spring), and can confirm it isn't dull!

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[vilePossum]

The 940 is a nice blade but not a good comparison to the pm2 it has a totally different blade design. Had the 940 and replace it with a 943. But please compare comparable things. Like the barrage.

 

[Sharpening]

The 940 is a nice blade but not a good comparison to the pm2 it has a totally different blade design. Had the 940 and replace it with a 943. But please compare comparable things. Like the barrage.

I wish I had more knives to compare. I'm not trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I'm more trying to see the different designs of the companies.

I'm sure we all are pretty aware that the PM2 is one of spyderco's most popular blades, while the 940 is one of benchmade's most popular blades.

I'm trying to compare the most popular models to see their uses, and what they were aimed at.

I'm pretty sure most people new to knives will see everyone raving about the PM2 and 940, so this is just looking at what the companies prime knives* are all about.

*Not looking at benchmade's 500 dollar specialty knives which come out in limited batches.

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[vilePossum]

I wish I had more knives to compare. I'm not trying to make an apples to apples comparison, I'm more trying to see the different designs of the companies.

I'm sure we all are pretty aware that the PM2 is one of spyderco's most popular blades, while the 940 is one of benchmade's most popular blades.

I'm trying to compare the most popular models to see their uses, and what they were aimed at.

I'm pretty sure most people new to knives will see everyone raving about the PM2 and 940, so this is just looking at what the companies prime knives* are all about.

*Not looking at benchmade's 500 dollar specialty knives which come out in limited batches.

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Sorry, didn't mean to come across rude. It is true that the 940 is rather popular, and with its own merit, but the cutting is wastly different.
Both benchmade and spyderco do make excellent blade shapes. Personally... I switch
Gotta add though, I use my knives for cutting only so slicing is my primary concern.