General question: What makes a $900 knife so much better than a $40 knife?

tolerances vs fit and finish is what seems to me is the main thing that drives up prices. But for the amount of hours out into a handmade knife, especially ones with excellent fit and finish and tight tolerances, you are paying most knife makers less than minimum wage.

Competitive collectors will also drive up prices; Emersons customs are in such high demand that you cant get one even if you have the money in hand.

Once I thought the same way you did. I thought that more than $60 was outrageous for a knife. Than I bought one, and I saw what you get for 60 bucks, then my price went up to around 100, and then I got a spyderco Gayle bradley (got mine for a steal at 120), and my price went up. Now I usually eye folders in the 150-250 range. But if I like it enough, like with anything else I will pay a bit more.

As far as customs go, I couldnt imagine spending less than 400 for one I that I would want. Aside from new knife makers, or some smaller custom knives I have seen.

If you are buying from a respected company or maker that you like you get your money's worth.
 
If you just want to cut stuff.. any sharp object will do. If you want to pry something.. any thick piece of steel will do.. if you want fine hand craftsmanship to look at and admire.. now you are talking about $$
 
HighlanderNorth said:
... A CNC machine can cost 50K, 100K or 150K even, but once programmed, they rattle out finished pieces like nobody's business!-Depending upon the machine and the part being produced

.... I'm not disrespecting anyone who buys them, I'm just trying to understand the cost.
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By implying that knifemakers "...rattle out finished pieces like nobody's business... ," you really are disrespecting both the makes and the buyers.

I am also done.
 
Why do I purchase custom knives?

Because there are really nice people doing what they love doing and doing it well. I want to support them. I want to use a knife knowing that someone made that knife for especially for me. It is that simple.
 
I would agree that true customs are well worth it, but production shop non customs for absurd prices I don't quite understand. For Example, I would love some big Busse knives (for using), but honestly would a 9" busse that's 3-4x the price of an ESEE Junglas be a better user? Both have the same scale material and the ESEE actually has a better warranty. Sure, the Busse is more far more collectable, and more exclusive. Does that make the knife "better"? Really up to the buyer.

More expensive doesn't *always* equal better, sometimes just more exlcusive, purdier, different features or other things. I'm sure that there are many cases of a less expensive knife being superior to a more expensive knife, after all not every product is successful in market - and being inferior is why they usually fail :).

IE: The Ford Edsel as an inferior product, and Gap clothing as a "Premium" status symbol that does not offer anything of substance over a normal quality made product.
 
It comes down to the battle between our hearts and our minds (or passion and logic).

Logic favors mass production and the efficiency of modern manufacturing techniques -resulting in the lowest possible prices. Logic sees the knife as a tool with a simple job, and therefore it does not need to be special in any way other than "being sharp."

Passion has no room for competitive economics and the accounting of prices. With passion you follow your truest inner desires, favoring the master craftsman who can create a uniquely personalized object matching your every wish. Passion sees the knife as more than just a simple tool, even to the point of it being an extension of identity or self.

...or something like that.:D
 
HighlanderNorth said:
Dude, Im new here and all, but I truly dont understand the attitude! I am not trolling AT ALL!
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Hmm, lets see. I think maybe it's because instead of researching, as was suggested, or reading through the WIP thread I posted so you can see for yourself how much work goes into a custom, you start talking about "common sense" and "simply cut out knife shaped form out of a piece of sheet steel and put a blade on it," and how you worked in a machine shop, so clearly you know everything there is to know. If you actually want to understand the cost, you need to understand the process. Yet you keep posting things that make it clear that you don't understand how much labor is involved in making even a simple blade.

That tells me that you're missing the point. If you really want to understand why makers price things the way they do, then you need to understand the process. If you have a legitimate question, you might well served to spend less time talking about your own qualifications and experiences, and telling folks like marcinek about common sense. Talking about how a machine shop can "rattle out pieces" doesn't mean anything to most custom makers, because very few makers can afford the kind of machinery that's available to a big producer, and so that all has to be done by hand. That's why I suggested that you try making one yourself. That's one of the easiest ways to discover why a custom costs what it does, and it can be a very rewarding process too, making something yourself.

I didn't start knowing everything about knives, and I still don't. But you also don't see any threads like this from me. Virtually everything I know, I learned from reading threads on the forums. There's a TON of great information out there if you just look for it. Short version, I think you're trolling because you haven't even specified what knives you're talking about that you can't understand why they're so expensive, and you haven't done any research to learn about the process, which suggests that you don't actually care about the answer. Change that pattern of behavior, and don't tell experienced members that you don't need to research because "common sense" proves you right, and I won't think you're a troll.
 
HighlanderNorth said:
Dude, Im new here and all, but I truly dont understand the attitude! I am not trolling AT ALL! I asked a simple question, and twice now I have made it clear that I AM NOT disrespecting anyone who buys these things! Thats the 3rd time now. Ive spent money I couldnt afford on hobbies, and I make $45,000 per year, so I'm not rich! Where did you get that from? You read what you wanted to read, and not what I posted. I didnt say I am going to buy a 50k CNC machine. YOU put those words in my mouth. I dont have 50K, and I lost my friggin house 3 years ago due to the economy and my credit is now screwed........ How's that for rich?


Dont assume the wrong things....... I asked a question, and I have gotten good answers(mostly). Did you wonder why a basic looking knife could cost so much when you first got into this, or were you born with that knowledge?
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I think you just kinda came off wrong....Or it seemed to a couple that you did.

Your original post made some good points and asked some good questions. They have all been asked and answered and debated and re-asked thus the reminder to do some research.

I like this answer

swonut said:
I best heard it explained to me as the rule of 9's:

In sailing, for example the rules say your keel can weigh no more than 1000 kg. To make a keel that weighs 999# costs 1000$, to make it weigh 999.9# costs 10,000$ to make it weigh 999.99# costs 100,000$. So, for each .x9 will cost you one order of magnitude.

Same with knives:

Want it to cut. --
Want to to close and cut-
Want it to cut, close and lock
Want it to cut, close, lock, and look good
Want it to cut, close, lock, look good, and be made of exotic materials.

Obviously, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. and if you plan to beat on your knife with a baton, then maybe you are outside the norm. Quartz watches keep the best time, buses move the most people from A-B, but, for me, there is some intrinsic value when I have to remember to wind my watch every morning when I first look at it and remember the way my wife looked when she gave it to me on my thirtieth B-day-- when we could not afford it, but she made the call that said that she believed in us enough to take the chance. Same with my Sebenza or Hinderer. When I pull it out, the issue is not if it can cut the tiny string hanging from my pocket, but if it can make me smile when it cuts the string.
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and will offer my own thought.
I have an edc that I have carried for 7 years now. LOVE IT, that's why it has lasted for 7 years in and out of my pocket 15 times a day at least. It's a $40 knife. I made one like it that would easily out perform my edc, but it looks so good and I spent so much time on it and I'm so proud of it that to edc it would leave indelible marks so I don't! If I translate that to $ and some one trades a bunch of them to me for one of the knives I put that kinda time and effort and thought and skill and heart into, he/she will value that knife as much as I did when I was making it for them.
 
The Gubmint has it. You pay high prices for inefficiency. Not enough made for economies of scale, not enough automation to reduce man hours, inventory not large enough for volume discounts. It makes the product more 'special', but it doesn't help function. Modern equipment means forging is no better than stock removal, steels have to do things in environments the old smiths could not comprehend. We get the benefit of manufacturing meant for tooling that makes these simple hand tools trivial in comparison.

A good knife is therefore not hard to mass prodxuce. But you don't always want just pure functionality.
 
HighlanderNorth said:
Dude, Im new here and all, but I truly dont understand the attitude! I am not trolling AT ALL!
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The reason is that we get this question at least once every other month, and the vast majority of the time, it's someone with an agenda looking to pick a fight.

Do the searches, and educate yourself. There's plenty of resources here that you can take advantage of to learn from. If that's what you really want to do.
 
HighlanderNorth,

I get where you are coming from. I think it has a lot to do with reputation and like Sodak said about supply and demand. I'd love to have a Jens Anso knife, but cannot justify that kind of money for a knife I would want to use. I would freak out if I lost it or it was stolen or abused, etc. and would probably end up not using it. I suspect if I was a custom knifemaker and had a huge backlog, I might increase my prices to the point where the backlog drops. Or if I could get away with selling my knife for that much I probably would. I do know that I can get a truly custom knife from local makers for far, far less money that are every bit as good as the expensive knives (Harvey King Knives being a good example). And I feel much better about beating up a sub $100 knife than a $500 knife. Maybe a knife that had some very special engraving on much of the handle (like on a pistol) I could understand the cost - or if for whatever reason, the process takes much longer (a hand-forged knife should cost more just because it's much more labor intensive versus buying stock metal and grinding the shapes).
 
I can tell you one reason that even the higher end factory knives cost more. if you look at something like the ZT 0560, if you were to try to buy just the raw materials to make that knife, they might end up costing you as much as your $40 retail price and that is before you do any water jet cutting, CNC milling, drilling or grinding or heat treating, labor and overhead, marketing, the distributor and dealers cut of the pie, not to mention paying Mr. Hinderer his royalty payment.
 
$40 vs $900 - Huge difference. That's a Geo Metro vs a Lamborghini.

$500 vs $900 - That's more of preference, rarity, and customization to fit your specifications...Corvette vs a Lamborghini (both are great cars though)
 
Spot on. With many of the things that us knife nuts demand today, I don't think that you really get to that "point of diminishing returns" even with factory knives until you are north of say $150-200 because of the cost of producing cool stuff using cool materials..
AnthonyTheAbyss said:
$40 vs $900 - Huge difference. That's a Geo Metro vs a Lamborghini.

$500 vs $900 - That's more of preference, rarity, and customization to fit your specifications...Corvette vs a Lamborghini (both are great cars though)
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Ok take for example 2 cars.
A Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 and a Ford Mustang converted in to a Shelby SuperSnake by Shelby America. Both are Mustangs, Both are around the same speed etc etc. The one from Ford is mass produced and cost around $50k, the one from shelby is limited run, hand built and custom and cost another around $125k all said and done. Why? Because its made by a small company,using custom made parts by people not robots and your also paying for the Name.. Such as with Hinderer,Chris Reeve, Ken Onion, RJ Martain etc.. its not just a $900 or whatever the cost knife.. Its THE KNIFE that these famous craftsman have made, that have perfected there craft, use the best of materials and make the best blade they can. Its just something you can't put a price on. And why people buy these amazing Tools and I envy them
 
Sonnydaze said:
It's a matter of what's it worth to you, as previous folks have said.

A Ruger Blackhawk is a $400 revolver. A custom Ruger Blackhawk by one of the better-known pistol-smiths will run $2400. A "1911" .45 auto ($600) will run upwards of $4000 in a custom model. They all go bang. And I suppose that most knives will cut.
I don't own any custom knives yet, but I do own some rather expensive high-end production knives, such as CRK, and I'm pleased with their quality. I'll own a custom when I find one that catches my eye and doesn't cost over $550 or so. And I won't wait a year for one, either.
Sonny
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I think you've underestimated the dollar amount by a bit.
 
HighlanderNorth said:
Dude, Im new here and all, but I truly dont understand the attitude! I am not trolling AT ALL! I asked a simple question, and twice now I have made it clear that I AM NOT disrespecting anyone who buys these things! Thats the 3rd time now. Ive spent money I couldnt afford on hobbies, and I make $45,000 per year, so I'm not rich! Where did you get that from? You read what you wanted to read, and not what I posted. I didnt say I am going to buy a 50k CNC machine. YOU put those words in my mouth. I dont have 50K, and I lost my friggin house 3 years ago due to the economy and my credit is now screwed........ How's that for rich?


Dont assume the wrong things....... I asked a question, and I have gotten good answers(mostly). Did you wonder why a basic looking knife could cost so much when you first got into this, or were you born with that knowledge?
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People get butthurt when you question why they buy their toys and why they spend so much on them. That's the root of it. I constantly see sellers in the For Sale area that are saying they bought this or that but "times are tight and I need the money". It's an addiction, made worse by people getting that "I have to have this because everyone else has one!" mentality. Poor impulse control is sometimes involved, and I can fully understand that as I have on occasion been convinced that I HAD to buy something.

Usually people buy customs because it catches their eye, it's their hobby, and because they want something unique that they consider better quality in terms of materials used. For one person is may be a car, for another a gun, for another a knife. However, I am the type of person who doesn't just open letters or cut twine with my knife, so I personally do not see the appeal of such expensive knives. Really, there is a divided line here between real users and real collectors, although I will go as far as to say that some people qualify as both. I see beauty in a knife that cuts extremely well and never lets me down as I put it through the paces, all the while developing wear and tear. Other people like to keep their expensive knives in a safe and fondle them. To each their own.
 
A whole lot of post and I didn't see anyone really address his issue with the word "custom". Seem's like a fair discussion.
 
If you actually want to understand the cost, you need to understand the process. Yet you keep posting things that make it clear that you don't understand how much labor is involved in making even a simple blade.
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How much more labor and cost is involved in making a ZT0550 compared to a knife directly from Hinder that cost $1000? What are the special process and procedures and labor that are involved in the Hinder xm-18 that are not involved in the ZT0550 that make the knife that much more expensive? Is there anything "custom" about the Hinder?
 
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