Gerber Silver Trident

[Cliff Stamp]

The Gerber Silver Trident is ground from 0.215" thick 154CM stainless steel with a dual flat grind which is 0.625" high, it weighs 320 g and is neutral in balance. The primary and secondary edges are ground at 22 +/- 1 degrees per side with an edge thickness of 0.035-0.050". The primary serrations are of a fluid wavy pattern ground at 30 degrees included and are 0.065" thick at back. The secondary serrations are chisel tip ground with the point inline with the edge and the scallops ground at 27 degrees and are 0.075" thick at back.

With the primary edge, push cutting 3/8" hemp required 35 +/- 2 lbs. The primary serrations are very fluid and efficient, making a cut with 14-16 lbs, while the secondary serrations required 30-32 lbs and were not very fluid which is to be expected given they are chisel tipped for durability. The cutting ability of the plain edge section in general was fairly low as it is thick and obtuse, fairly standard for a "tactical" blade. For example it is out cut by two to one by the Spyderco Vagabond on various woods. The carving ability specifically is reduced as the primary serration sare in the region where it is most efficient to carve. The primary plain section of edge is also so far out on the blade it creates a huge torque disadvantage and thus the serrations are actually similar in efficiency.

The point on the Silver Trident is fairly thick, it tapers 5.5 degrees distally through 0.865", and the blade is 1.1" wide at the back of the point. With a 50 lbs push it sank 169 +/- 5 pages into a phone book and with a hard vertical stab penetrated 592 +/- 5 pages. On 2x4 digging it sank in well and the handle was comfortable and secure, however the tip bent though a half an inch on even softer lumber so it isn't suitable for digging in even moderate woods.

The Silver Trident is fairly neutral in balance and only weighs 310 grams so it doesn't make a powerful chopper and a regular 2x4 takes quite awhile to hack through. It has less than 20% of the chopping ability of the Wildlife Hatchet. However it does have enough chopping ability to clear limbs and boughs for a shelter, make notches, rough out stakes and is comfortable and secure in hand while doing so.

While it can be used to baton woods it has problems in doing so because of the sharpened top edge and the serrations at the base of the primary edge. The serrations will have durability problems with knots so care would want to be take with that region of the blade, and the sharpend top edge really chews up batons wasting energying cutting up the baton that would be better used driving the knife into the wood.

The Silver Trident has a very ergonomic and secure handle, one of the better feeling grips seen in quite awhile, capable of being used for an extended period of time without raising discomfort while still allowing a very high degree of security. Even in very hard work such as the heavy stabbing described in the above, the handle was comfortable and secute. The large steel buttcap provides a solid hammer surface for tent pegs, nails or even crushing bone. The dual guard interfers with much utility usage but does provide extreme security in compromised grip positions. The top guard was cut off soon after work was started with the blade to allow greater grip versatility.

The sheath is made by Blackhawk Industries and is a cordura / kydex composition with a number of enhancements over lower grade versions. It readily converts from low to high ride using velcro straps, the kydex liner is held in place by a screw so it can be removed for ease of cleaning, or replaced if broken. The sheath has a secondary retention system with an extension of the kydex liner which fits up around the blade in the guard region and is secure enough to hold the blade in without the strap around the grip. The blade was still held in place with the kydex clip alone through falls of 10 and then 15 feet onto a hardwood floor, however it could be dislodged with a hard wrist snap. The accessory pouch is large enough for a solid multi tool, small knife or sharpener, or mini-survival kit. It would be nice if it came standard with a small torx driver to take the handle apart and a screw driver to remove the kydex liner. Lee Valley sells modified washers which serve well as screwdriver.

Ref :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/silver_trident.html

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have updated this in the past year. Basically I view this as one of the many tactical type knives which leaves me wondering what exactly this was designed to do well. This knife does not cut well as the grinds are thick and obtuse and doesn't have the mass or balance to chop well. It can't for example even chop wood to shape significantly faster than a decent small knife can just shape it by carving. The tip doesn't high high penetration but yet it also bends readily in woods. The edge tended to chip very frequently when it was sent out on pass arounds even with the stock profile which is obtuse and it also rusted readily. However the handle is a standound for ergonomics, security and durability and the nice wide back plate is nice for hammering. In short this is the kind of knife which if I didn't have a knife I would be grateful to have but this would be really far down on any list if choices were available. The only thing that I actually tended to pick it to do was work in rooty soil ad the serrations on the back can saw through the roots efficiently and the back edge preserves the primary edge cutting sods and similar.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

The tip doesn't have high penetration

Whole generations of GI's went to war with double ground spear point bayonet blades. What do you think makes for better penetrators? Swedged clip points? Flat ground drop points?

 

[Confederate]

I've heard a lot of similar complaints about other outdoor knives and someone recently posted who was unhappy with the Cold Steel Recon Tanto because it wouldn't cut. Hope this isn't a new trend, too.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Whole generations of GI's went to war with double ground spear point bayonet blades.

It isn't the nature of the geometry but the specifics of the implementation here, specifically the lack of taper and the edge profile. In general a point can be weak and have high penetration and still be "good" but when you have a point which doesn't sink well into soft targets because the profile is too obtuse but yet bends readily in wood working then it raises questions. This general pattern is common on knives such as the Trident which don't tend to fare well in both of the general performance complements such as cutting ability / durability. The Green Beret and Recondo are others of a similar nature. In contrast you have something like the TAC-11 which isn't a high performance cutting knife but is very durable in regards to impacts and for prying. However when a knife tends to do neither of those well you end up with what Thom has described as an "art tactical".

I've heard a lot of similar complaints about other outdoor knives and someone recently posted who was unhappy with the Cold Steel Recon Tanto because it wouldn't cut. Hope this isn't a new trend, too.

Most of the heavier tactical knives don't tend to cut overly well, however with a properly sharpened edge they will all aggressively slice ropes. That specific case sounded like a defect to me as the performance was far lower than even the knives I have seen from Ontario and Cold Steel is generally a step above them.

-Cliff

 

[Satrang]

Ask Bill Harsey the designer and Chief Watson (original navy SEAL) and consultant on the project what it was intended to do. I'm sure they will be in Oregon next year for the show. Both Bill and the Chief spend much of the show and after show discussing many aspects of knife design and use.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have asked the designers of those types of knives and many others for this type of information on numerous occasions, specifically requesting what comparison work they would like to see against other knives which would showcase the abilties of said design. Information is rarely forthcoming on knives of that class for the obvious reason that no such comparisons exist. Hence as well the obvious lack of performance data in the promotion of such knives, in contrast for example to the readily available supply of such information from makers like Kirk, Wilson, Johnanning, etc. and manufacturers like Mission, Spyderco, Busse etc. . It is actually more informative to ask someone like Kirk or Cashen why they don't make their knives which such designs and why they stick to very basic profiles, including their "tactical" knives.

-Cliff

 

[Daniel L]

It was designed to sell lots of knives to armchair commandoes

At least that's what I get from the ads. I have to admit i like the lines of the knife (except the double guard) - but I buy a knife to cut and/or chop and I could see this one was probably going to do neither.

Thanks Cliff for saving me from another knife lemon!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...except the double guard

That is really easy to cut off. It like most of the double guards is horrible from an ergonomic point of view. This however isn't a neccessary problem with such a design. Heafner has a double guard which is both very ergonomic and secure.

...cut and/or chop and I could see this one was probably going to do neither.

Or pry or stab effectively either. Of course you could do significant harm to someone with it, one of the often promoted uses of knives of said class, however there are lots of schools of thought on fighting knives that don't have such designs either and also prefer much simpler blades.

It would be nice if the actual elements of the design were actually discussed, it isn't on the actual Gerber website for example and that copy is just repeated everywhere and is essentially a promotional piece on the handle. This however isn't an isolated problem, few knives have extensive design commentary.

-Cliff

 

[Satrang]

Hopefully Harsey will chime in on the thread. One comment I have is it is fairly evident that this it not a "chopper". Serrations and a short blade make that obvious. Any SEALS out there that can comment on a knife designed by one of their own?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The blade is easily long enough to have significant dynamic cutting power. This isn't a function of length as much as mass, balance and efficiency of the cutting profile. Mike Swaim covered this in detail about a dozen years ago on rec.knives. More recently Possum has talked about the details of static/dynamic balance in regards to mass distribution in detail regarding raw power, speed and comfort during impacts.

Lots of blades which include chopping in their scope of work include serrations, the Project I for example and the SOG SEAL 2000. Some of them are even fully serrated such as the DSU2, another SEAL designed/evolved blade depending on who you ask. There are also multiple descriptions of SEAL trials/selection criteria which specifically note chopping ability as being part evaluated performance.

As an example of such a knife which performs well as a cutting/utility tool, the Mission MPK was also designed specifically for such individuals with their direct input (depending again on who you ask). It is a basic clean cli point design with and without a section of serrations at the base. 154CM was field tested in MPK trials and found to be far too brittle which is why they switched to Beta-Ti and A2. They also use a Hytrel grip as well, but not of the same design.

So yeah I would be interested to see how the Trident is specifically superior to the SOG SEAL, DSU2, MPK, then the other blades which are not special forces designed but work well irregardless such as the CU/7, A1, Ratweiler, etc. . It would also be interesting to see a full list of such performance criteria, you can see on example of this in Yam's Ground Zero Trials which was discussed about a dozen years ago on rec.knives. If you do what he did with the Trident and then with the other blades I listed they will readily exceed it many times over. Ref :

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.knives/msg/ab21707006d46016

Mike Swaim also has a bunch of similar comparisons of that time period on similar knives, I linked a bunch of them in my base reference page a few weeks ago. The most upfront maker/designer of that class of knives I have seen is Justin of Ranger knives and that company has an impressive military background as well, but yet the designs are not full of serrations, blood grooves, swedges, etc. . He is also quite open about what the knives are designed to do and what not to do, and has adapted them recently when users request less tactical and more wood craft blades. So there is another comparison - Trident vs Flat ground RD6/7. Navy Seal design vs Army Ranger design influnced by non-special forces feedback.

-Cliff

 

[Satrang]

Serrations are a hindrance to chopping ability. The day I see a competition axe with serrations, I'll retract that statement. Just looking at the Trident and how it is constructed, chopping ability shouldn't be a critieria for purchase.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Serrations are a hindrance to chopping ability.

In general you are always trading off performance in one area for gains in another. The Mission MPK-Ti gives up a lot of chopping ability to the MPK-A2 simply due to density of Ti vs steel. This doesn't mean it isn't meant to do dynamic cutting and this would not be part of an evaluation. It gives up dynamic cutting power (and strength and wear resistance) for corrosion resistance and the toughness of Beta-Ti thus how much of each is traded is obviously of benefit to know.

In regards to serrations, in general they are not placed in the contact area of efficient heavy chopping so they don't reduce the chopping ability. They are usually right at the choil and thick wood chopping is either slightly further out or through the tip depending on the rigidity of the wood. The DSU2 is an exception as it is designed for underwater rope cutting so it takes the reduction in chopping ability for greater slicing ability on wet and thick synthetic ropes. However as Yam showed, it can still chop wood effectively.

The reason felling axes don't have serrations is that they are focused tools meant to do one thing. However if for some reason you were to put chisel tipped serrations on a axe it would not scuttle the performance so dramatically. There would just be no reason to add them. However as noted the serrations on this knife are not why it doesn't chop well. It doesn't chop well simply because it has little power for dynamic cuts and horrible efficiency for cutting in general. So there is both little energy on the swing and even less transfered into the cut.

[trident]

... chopping ability shouldn't be a critieria for purchase.

Yes, inspite of how often chopping is a promoted use of such knives, as noted for the SOG SEAL 2000 for example, Mike and Joe noted about a dozen years ago this class of knives chops very poorly for their size, among the many other things they don't do well. This has lead to the common misconception that this length of knife chops poorly but as noted this is false. The chopping ability isn't due to length but more of balance, mass and cross section as Mike discussed in detail on rec.knives.

I would agree that it chops poorly, I would also add cutting ability, durability, and point penetration/strength, guard design, ease of sharpening and edge retention for hard work to the list of aspects which would make me avoid that knife. The low chopping ability is actually a minor point. The MPK-Ti also has very low chopping ability, but is extremely durable, is an excellent prying tool, has solid tip penetation, very resistant to impacts, exceptional corrosion resistance, cuts very well, etc. .

I have some edge retention work to do on the Trident as I want to benchmark this against Spyderco's VG-10 on cardboard/carpet. I also have some heavier utility and impact work to do but have been holding off on this as the knife is likely to break readily and grossly. It will be stabs and heavy dynamic cuts into hard targets and heavy hits with a baton, similar to the work done with the Deerhunters. I may reprofile it and redo the cutting work as well.

I am also going to drop Justin an email about his perspective on what this class of knives needs to do and how he feels they should be evaluated as he is one of the few Ranger/Seal types that will actually be specific about this and give details. I am, as have always noted, open to suggestions in this general regard to suggested blade specific comparison work. I would also caution in general about designs simply because they have a military connection. There are few people defending this :

http://www.darkopsknives.com/cgisto...up=1&ida=6&idp=3&his=0|3&cart_id=7557373.3024

in the constant attacks on Dark Op's knives even though it is a SEAL design.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I reground the Trident, I intended to take the primary grind right down to the edge but I stopped at 20 minutes on a one inch belt sander with a fresh 80 grit belt. The profile I obtained dropped the edge from the initial specifications of 0.035-0.050" at 22 (1) degrees to 0.020" at 15/16 degrees. This is still way more obtuse than necessary for a knife outside of metal/concrete impacts but it takes longer to refine the edge the more you grind and I decided that was enough to illustrate the difference anyway. I might finish the regrind later.

With the new edge freshly honed (1200 DMT + five passed per side on 0.5 micron chromium/aluminum oxide) the performance on 3/8 hemp through six different rolls was 20 (1) / 26 (1) lbs on a slice/push compared to the origional 35 (2) on a push. This difference is essentially the angle ratio as you would expect. The wood cutting performance was much higher due to it being sensitive to both angle and thickness and it improved by about 100% slicing clear pine under 75 lbs of force. Here is a shot of the modified Trident and samples of wood cutting showing the slices needed to remove a specific amount of stock with the the modified edge and the two serrated sections :

Checking the performance on 1/4" plywood, board, and birch flooring, the chopping ability had also increased by about 100%. It was also now *much* more effective cutting springy wood such as Alders :

Before and after had very much a club vs knife like feel. It now readily has enough chopping ability to rough stock to shape more efficiently than a small carving knife. Ease of sharpening also increased dramatically, especially for micro-beveling with v-rods which would be very awkward with the initial bevel.

I'll compare the effect on edge durability by contrasting the primary and secondary edges later on after I do more cutting. I also want to do some digging and similar to see if the primary edge is too fragile, but it is still far more obtuse than most of my heavy use knives anyway, and I have some cardboard/carpet cutting to do.

-Cliff

 

[James Green Dragon]

I'm going to do the unpopular thing here and state the obvious - there is no way I want to buy a ~$200 knife and have to regrind it before it has acceptable performance for cutting or chopping. I think the basic design is pretty neat and all too but come on. :thumbdn: :thumbdn:

And if the edge is too obtuse to cut or hack effectively, that definately diminishes its usefulness from a combatives standpoint. So I gotta say, I'm with Daniel L on this one - It was designed to sell lots of knives to armchair commandoes. Either that or the finished production knife turned out differently than the military designer intended.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...there is no way I want to buy a ~$200 knife and have to regrind it ...

To clearify, the above isn't meant to imply such, just to note the effect that geometry has on cutting/chopping ability.

-Cliff

 

[OilMan]

Hopefully Harsey will chime in on the thread. One comment I have is it is fairly evident that this it not a "chopper". Serrations and a short blade make that obvious. Any SEALS out there that can comment on a knife designed by one of their own?

Bill no likey Cliff and he gets a little childish when Cliff says anything that Bill doesn't like. Which is most everything.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

That is putting it mildly, I think it always betrays the arguement when you focus on the speaker and not the issue. Consistency is always lacking in those general types of critisms as well, how come you never see anyone condemned for similar reasons if they pile heaps of praise on a knife, often without any benchmarks at all. In any case it would be interesting to see commentary from "operators", either designers or just users as to why such esoteric designs are prefered over utitilarian designs like the MPK, RD7, etc. . In general I also think that is a horrible class of steel for such knives, especially if they are serrated which pretty much removes the need for wear resistance anyway. If the blades were 12C27m (or similar) they would be more resistant to impacts, bending and corrosion. They would also be easier to sharpen, have a higher push cutting ability and be cheaper to make. That however isn't a current "hot" steel.

-Cliff

 

[Satrang]

Bill no likey Cliff and he gets a little childish when Cliff says anything that Bill doesn't like. Which is most everything.

Are you saying that input from Bill (the designer) is not needed since he probably won't agree with Cliff?

 

[OilMan]

Are you saying that input from Bill (the designer) is not needed since he probably won't agree with Cliff?

Nope. What I'm saying is Cliff started the thread and Bill probably goes out of his way to avoid reading threads by Cliff. Don't get your panties in a bunch.