Getting started with mousepad blocks, decent stones and strops

T

Treemo

Joined
Jun 14, 2015
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Firstly, some background. My partner has started a job travelling to LA and back which, after some struggles with a local blade, opened my eyes to the range of available items in the States. I got my money back on the heavy machete and now have access to some cheaper stuff like the Tramontina/Marbles etc. Of course, this research led me into sharpening which then led me to sharpening the kitchen knives and Leatherman, and then led me to "should I buy new knives while I have the chance?".

Now, I'm holding back from new knives at the moment (machetes will happen regardless and maybe a Small Forest Axe) but the sharpening is blowing my mind. Using Google to trawl hundreds of threads has left me dazed and confused.

I've narrowed it down to mousepad and wetdry for convex on pine blocks (what I had available and visible in photo. I made two to see how it turned out). I'll order sheets of sandpaper through Amazon as it will be cheaper than here. The mousepad is a very thin type with little give.

Then I figured, while I have access to the States, why not buy some stones that will last a good part of my life (considering the bug hasn't bit me too hard and I won't be sharpening all the time). This I narrowed down to the Atoma 140, Shapton Glass 500x2 and Glass 2000. I'll learn with the cheap Mundial kitchen knives at home.

The strop has me worried. Do I continue using the pine blocks, and buy some of the good leather from Amazon (probably the Hand American will get me two strops) or do I use balsa that I should be able to find somewhere here? I made a field strop from a belt thinking I would combine it with sandpaper, black and green compound for touchups on the potential machetes (visible in photo). The compound I will also buy from Amazon or online US-retailer.

So, the question is, balsa or leather? Chromium oxide or one of the diamond pastes or sprays? What strop(s) and compound(s) should follow a 2000 glass if I happened to possess one?




Sorry for the long post. I'd also like to thank the people that share their knowledge here, particularly Jason B, HH, Obsessed, Stitchawl and many others. I'm hoping to get any advice, or stone suggestions etc.
 
I would take balsa over leather and 1 micron diamond over any other compound.

By Shapton Glass 500x2 do you mean two stone?, if so I would recommend the double thick 500. It gives you double the stone without doubling the price.

After the 2k I usually only strop on my pant leg or on blank printer paper, I just like to remove the burr here because the 2k yields a nice toothy-polished edge. Easily stropped to insane levels of sharpness though.

Your off to a good start, and have decided on good tools. Now it's all up to practice.

Thank you, BTW
 
Yes, I meant the double thick. I figured I'm not sure how long this LA thing will work out and may as well buy some time with some stones. Initially, I thought double Glass 500 and a 2000 Pro but there isn't too much in it, it seems. A lot of people seem to recommend just the 1000. The 140 or DMT XXC will be necessary as the two of the kitchen knives I have are chipped and the tip is missing from one.

So, in a way, a strop is not necessary then, or rather using a specialised tool/compound for the job is not necessary? I could stretch some paper over a spare block easy enough and the 2000 will allow me to get away with it? No, I'm not entirely interested in reaching world record levels of sharpness.

Any tips on the field strop/hone for the machete? Sandpaper and oxide ok for that?


You're welcome. The internet is an amazing thing and good on you for sharing your knowledge. I watched 50 mins of your convexing on stones today and that's 50 mins I'll never get back. Not saying that's a bad thing, just my brain is overfull of research and I'm starting to forget things. "Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and I forgot how to drive?"

Thanks for the reply.
 
Stick with the glass stones and the Atoma, it's what I use and my customers are very happy. The 2k glass produces a great edge by itself and no, a strop is not necessarily needed but it can help with softer steels that hold a burr much longer. One of my favorite strops is to take some denim and stretch it over a board then apply some Mothers Mag Polish, yes the stuff at the auto parts store. Please remember, when I strop it's only to remove remaining burr, I do not strop to polish the edge.

I would probably wait until you got your stones though, stropping can turn into a crutch real quick. Learn to get good sharpness from the stone and how to reduce the burr with light pressure. Once you can do this stropping will be beneficial and you will not rely on it for shortcomings on the stone.
 
I'll add a 'ditto' to Jason's recommendation for trying a denim-over-wood strop, with Mother's Mag or other aluminum oxide-based compounds (that could include many 'white rouge' stick-types, or Flitz/Simichrome polishing pastes and others). I've also had very good results using linen-over-wood, in the same manner.

As for leather, my favorite leather strop has also been the simplest: one of my leather belts used as a hanging (barber-style) strop, with some green compound applied to the inner (sueded) face of the leather. That one has worked very well on simple steels like 1095, CV and 420HC; something similar should also handle the machete's steel pretty well.

Also 'ditto' to his advice re: work on getting good edges on your stones, and using them to clean up and minimize burrs, prior to stropping. I've arrived at a place now, where I'm relying less on my strops and getting crisper and sharper edges on my hones and stones, with minimal or no stropping needed. That's a very happy and rewarding place to be... :)

I'm glad you've found some of my input helpful. Always good to hear. :thumbup:


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I've arrived at a place now, where I'm relying less on my strops and getting crisper and sharper edges on my hones and stones, with minimal or no stropping needed. That's a very happy and rewarding place to be... :)


David
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I am not quite there consistently but this is something that my Spyderco Sharpmaker taught me. Continue on a stone until the edge is as good as it gets. Still, going to a "good strop" (good in terms of backing and compound) definitely increases sharpness every single time in my world. It seems many of us have "better" results on harder backing with linen/denim/paper or balsa/bass wood than leather. Some microscopic data suggest that the basis for compounds may be more important for burr removal/risk of creating a new burr than the actually compound, not sure though how that is applied to maintenance of a blade.
 
awestib said:
I am not quite there consistently but this is something that my Spyderco Sharpmaker taught me. Continue on a stone until the edge is as good as it gets. Still, going to a "good strop" (good in terms of backing and compound) definitely increases sharpness every single time in my world. It seems many of us have "better" results on harder backing with linen/denim/paper or balsa/bass wood than leather. Some microscopic data suggest that the basis for compounds may be more important for burr removal/risk of creating a new burr than the actually compound, not sure though how that is applied to maintenance of a blade.
Click to expand...

That's what opened my eyes, at first when trying diamond compound on balsa as opposed to leather. When I'd first tried DMT's Dia-Paste on leather, it seemed almost inconsequential in the results I was getting. After trying it on balsa, it worked MUCH more aggressively in polishing, and I also noticed how quickly the balsa blackened up (never saw this on the leather I had used for it). Some substrates can be too soft for a compound to work well, and firming up the 'bedding' for compoind can make a night & day difference in how they work. I've noticed similar improvement with denim, linen or paper (all hard-backed) as a substrate with other compounds previously tried with leather, but the diamond compound's affinity for a firmer substrate like balsa or other wood produced an extreme change in performance. With white rouge on denim, in particular, I could (if I chose to) maintain most of my edges on that alone, needing a stone only in cases of repairing damage or altering the edge geometry. Relying on my denim strop is actually what I was doing, for the most part, before reaching my 'happy place' with my hone/stone results. I still like the denim & white rouge combination for quickly scrubbing burrs away, when doing some major convexing on sandpaper at coarse grit. That strop erases big, tenacious burrs in a hurry, and is a good fit for blades on which I'd like to retain a coarse-grit edge at ~320 or lower.


David
 
Thank you all for your comments. I suppose I should have included Andy in my initial post; from my gathering, an up-and-comer on the forums.

Mother's Mag, something we may actually have at one of our chain stores - http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/on...thers-Mag-Aluminium-Polish-141g.aspx?pid=1023 though it's showing as sold out.

Did I miss some threads in my research, I never really saw Aluminimum oxide or Mothers Mag mentioned? Leather and balsa ran at the forefront, denim and newspaper not far behind.

So, I'll leave the diamond 1 micron until way down the track when I have more stones....no I won't..or will I?


One more question to the experts, are there other stones that are more economical or longer lasting? Will the Glass last me a long time for a person that won't sharpen all that often?
 
Regarding the machete maintenance - a lot of that will depend on how hard its being used. A small (4-6") mill file will work very well. I use a small length of wooden dowel for the handle and apply compound right to that. Draw file it, then strop. A small paddle strop like you have made can keep it sharp as long as it isn't being used too hard, otherwise a harder backing will work a lot better.


Often I will just bring a chunk of honing compound and apply it right to some smooth bark or smooth piece of branch - use that for a strop.
 
Treemo said:
Thank you all for your comments. I suppose I should have included Andy in my initial post; from my gathering, an up-and-comer on the forums.

Mother's Mag, something we may actually have at one of our chain stores - http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/on...thers-Mag-Aluminium-Polish-141g.aspx?pid=1023 though it's showing as sold out.

Did I miss some threads in my research, I never really saw Aluminimum oxide or Mothers Mag mentioned? Leather and balsa ran at the forefront, denim and newspaper not far behind.

So, I'll leave the diamond 1 micron until way down the track when I have more stones....no I won't..or will I?


One more question to the experts, are there other stones that are more economical or longer lasting? Will the Glass last me a long time for a person that won't sharpen all that often?
Click to expand...


I would go the denim and mothers route for a strop, it does what you need it to do and will get you started. Once you get a little time to research strops and compounds you can make a more informed decision on which direction you want to go with stropping.

The Shapton Glass are 5mm of hard ceramic abrasive that is designed to last as long or longer than the average 1in thick stone. If you sharpen for yourself then they will probably last a lifetime. Coarse stones might need to be replaced every decade or so but in general they will last a long time.

You can get cheaper stones like King but you will be limited to sharpening basic carbon and some stainless. I can't knock the King brand but I can say there is a world of difference compared to a Shapton. Truthfully, the Shaptons are priced very well compared to the budget options and the sharpening ability you gain is worth double IMO.
 
Thanks again for the comments HH and Jason.

I'm pleased that some of my research has been on-track, I have a mill file (single cut medium) lined up for the machetes (and a file card) and that was how I was going to attempt to go based on what I had read and seen. I have Stihl files for the chainsaws that I can use in the field.

My research on the Glass also echoed your comments Jason (probably based around some things you had even said yourself), but you have thrown me a little with the bevel setting on a cheap diamond stone and keeping the expensive stones for lapping (in another thread). I suppose that would be something that someone who is sharpening in the excess must consider.

This has been a pleasant experience, thanks for helping me.
 
HH, do you mind answering a couple more. Figured I'll get a couple of full size files, and saw a lot of bastard files recommended, but a few smooth using the draw file method. The smooth when draw filed takes off a heap? I assume a bastard draw filed would take off even more? Most people using the bastard tend to push from the spine to the edge.

Maybe getting a bastard and smooth in 12 and using the Stihl chainsaw file in the field could be an option? What do you think there?
 
Yeah, if you sharpen a lot you tend to wear thing out faster. To give a little perspective, I wear out full size stones in 8-12 Months if used regularly.
 
Treemo said:
HH, do you mind answering a couple more. Figured I'll get a couple of full size files, and saw a lot of bastard files recommended, but a few smooth using the draw file method. The smooth when draw filed takes off a heap? I assume a bastard draw filed would take off even more? Most people using the bastard tend to push from the spine to the edge.

Maybe getting a bastard and smooth in 12 and using the Stihl chainsaw file in the field could be an option? What do you think there?
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I would not recommend a bastard file, only the single cut mill files. If its flat, the one that came with your Stihl will work great, don't use a round one unless the machete has an aggressive recurve. My Husquevarna came with a round and flat file and I use the flat one.

Most single cut files go by size, so a 12 inch will be "more coarse" than a 4 or 6 inch. I use a 12 inch to set the initial bevel, clamp the blade to the edge of a workbench if possible. For a handle I use a 1.5"x 8" wooden dowel, drilled to take the file, so I can keep my hands well back from the edge and have lots of leverage = less fatigue, more control. If you have them, leather gloves are a plus - I always work into the edge. This goes a lot faster than you might think once the file begins to bite.

Once the initial bevel is set both sides, burr raised along the length, I'll switch to a draw-file technique and that should remove less metal and make a smoother finish. Then on to the 4 or 6" (have a 1" by 6" dowel for this handle) and repeat the process - it goes a lot faster. When all done with a 4 or 6" file the edge should slice (not pushcut) newspaper and maybe shave a few arm hairs. For hard use, you're done...back to work! All touchups after can be done with the small file and the 12" might never be needed again till you buy your next machete or the lawnmower blade needs sharpening.

From here I'll finish on one of my Washboards, paper with compound wrapped around a bench stone, compound applied to the handle of my file - anything to shine it up a bit and remove the last burr. If it convexes the apex a small amount is probably a good thing unless its being used for light grasses and such.

The bolo machete I take backpacking sometimes will get the deluxe treatment and I'll take it to a medium/fine stone of some sort before stropping with compound.

I keep meaning to make a video detailing the entire process on a factory new machete but haven't gotten around to it - actually I have 6 hanging over my workbench now, so I might never buy another...

Here's a link to a video I made showing some finishing methods that will work with most stones, sandpaper blocks etc.

[video=youtube;Uidso_8KJ38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uidso_8KJ38[/video]
 
HH, are you sure about your statement there? I've been researching files, before your reply, and want to be sure.

From my understanding, a mill file comes in 3 grades and 2 types (mostly). Single cut 'bastard', single cut 'second cut', single cut 'smooth' and then double cuts in the same grades. Bastard is coarse, second is medium, smooth is smooth. European files have multiple grades, far more than the American style of file.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...jpg/220px-FilesFlat-Smooth-2ndCut-Bastard.jpg

So, you are saying your mill files are all smooth, but adjust their coarseness by size (which I had read during my research)?


Stihl files do come in flat and round, flat is required to dress the bar and adjust the rakers. The round obviously does the tooth. Looking at it, it's a single cut second cut or smooth of about 6 inches. A good field size.


I was going to order a Marbles and a Tramontina 14 Bolo and 18 and some rice knives while I have access to the USA. Haven't even bothered looking at prices here but for example, I glanced at the Condor Kephart which is $32 on Amazon. It's $80 here. Thanks for the link to the video, beginning watching now. Cheers for your help.

Edit: Had already seen it. This is what I mean by things falling out of my brain by over-researching!
 
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Taking another look at my files, I realize what I meant to say is not to use a double cut bastard file. Single cut bastard is fine and will make a much nicer edge and in my experience, hold up better when working moderately hardened steel. The smaller the finer, all other things being equal - bastard, second, smooth. My fine chain saw file is unmarked, my 4" is simply stamped 'mill' , my 6" 'mill bastard' ...

My Tramontina 14" bolo is my all around favorite - seems to hit above its weight class. For light work, I have the Marbles 14 "jungle" and an old straight bladed corn knife. Also have a few older Cold Steel - a bolo and panga pattern, and an imacasa panga. None cost over $20.
 
Received a Condor Kephart and ran it over a 220-2000 mouspead setup with a dry leather strop to finish and it's cutting paper reasonably nicely.

I think, knowing now, that I could have done a little better in each stage but slowly got the technique up in the 1500 to 2000 range.

Happy with the effort and I now have a very sharp, convexed Kephart and will buy some stones and attempt the kitchen knives in the future.

Thank you all very much for your guidance.

 
Brought in some Mother's Mag as per suggestion but don't have a pair of denim jeans for the scrap heap, nor could I find any, and went with a length of balsa. Sanded it, cut it to 9 inches, same length as the sandpaper block and gave it a crack. A 9 inch block also fits in a heavier duty resealable plastic "lunch wrap" bag so it stays out of the elements, lucky for me.

Well, I have a near mirror polish now but lost a tad sharpness due to angle/technique issues (my fault). Cut up some dinner with it for a test (it doesn't cut carrot lengthways interestingly enough, it just forces it apart), and then I put it back over the balsa and got it sharp again.

There is one part of the blade I can't get the factory scratches out of it, both sides (edge is sharp, shoulder doesn't match the rest of the blade) so I don't know what I'm doing wrong there. Just doesn't make contact with the paper enough, no matter what angle. Marker pen is removed, but doesn't get far enough back to really shine it up. About 1/3rd up from the heel, both sides.

Besides that...oooh shiny!
 
From what you describe it sounds like a small recurve set in by the factory. This causes a low spot in the edge and the reason you are not able to grind it out. Best way to fix it is by cutting into a stone with the edge to make sure the edge is properly shaped and has no gaps between stone and edge. Next, use a very coarse and flat stone to regrind the bevel, you will probably notice the grinding skip right over this trouble spot until enough steel is ground away that it becomes even again.

This is a very common problem in factory sharpening.
 
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