Ghosting?

Drew Riley said:
Ok, I can get behind the disclaimer of a payment deadline "or else" as more of a CYA. I'm sure it doesn't remove 100% of headaches associated with the occasional problematic customer, but I can see where that might be useful to point to from time to time.
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I think in a small industry like knife making, and an even smaller niche with custom knife making, this small bit of protection holds a lot of water. There will always be those that will try to take advantage one way or another, but even with a little bit in writing, it makes it infinitely easier to hold your line.
 
Ron Raducanu said:
That really depends what his goals are as a knifemaker. I have no illusions that I can make any kind of living selling knives. I just finished my first. If you are trying to make a name for yourself, and even somewhat rely on this craft to make a living, what you describe is bad business. Unlike art, per se, there are rules to running a successful business. And even if you are the greatest at what you do, if you can't sell your product because people don't want to deal with you, well, you don't run much of a business that way and you won't get very far. Back in the day, that wasn't much of an issue. But today, the business is crowded and the internet makes it easy to find what you're looking for.
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Agreed, bad business.
But heres some reality, no one needs another custom knife but he sure wants it. And a lot of guys making knives just want to make stuff in their shop and be left alone to do that. So does this result in some less than perfect business at times..sure..would a contract help..Doubt it, most people value their word,the others probably don't care about a contract for a minor sum transaction. Sorry Op, sidetrack alert.
 
Ron, you are brand new to knifemaking, having just finished your first knife today. I understand your wanting to help us, but those here who have been in the business for decades will tell you that there are almost no makers who use contracts, agreements, signed work orders, etc. A handshake is about as formal as most of us get. Email or a phone call is how 99% of custom orders are done. Only a handful of the big name makers take a deposit. Most of us shun the idea. This scenario in this thread is exactly why.

I have never heard of one custom maker being sued over a knife order not delivered, or sued over a knife sale period. If there was a deposit and then a knife has to be sold to a different buyer because the original one would not finish the deal, the maker would most likely hand back the deposit whenever the original buyer finally shows up.
 
I understand. I just hate to see anyone get screwed on something that they should be paid for and that they put their time, effort and even soul into.
 
Trust us, we will get paid ... just by someone else. The vast majority of knifemakers do it as a hobby, not a living. We are lucky if we support the hobby with any sales. Unless a knife is a very odd custom build, it will sell to another person.

Here is my business method. I think it is the same for most knifemakers:
I make knives that I like. If someone askes for a specific knife that is different from what I make, I will consider it and if I want to, I'll make that order. If it does not appeal to me, I will pass on the order, and perhaps recommend a maker who does that style. I do not take any deposit.
When the knife is done, I give the person the right of first refusal. If they like the knife and buy it, good. If they pass on it or there is a long delay in replying, I sell it to someone else. The knife is mine to sell. If the person cones back later and says, "I was on a trip/my computer died/etc. I will offer them ROFR on the next similar knife I make.
 
Ghosting or crickets does happen if ya take orders. In todays world of communication though, sitting around waiting for a response from someone isn't really necessary. I don't take orders but I had a guy buy a knife that he really liked. He wanted an identical one for his wife. I had the blade already heat treated so just threw it in with the next batch to finish off. Not an order per se, but first right of refusal. When the knife and the sheath were finished in a couple of weeks my wife (she handles most of the business side of things) gave him a call to collect his CC info. He was driving and would call back with cc # in a couple hours. Nothing. Two days later she called again and left a message. A day later she texted him. He read the text message. Another day later, after him reading the text message and not responding, we put the knife on our website for sale. I posted on Instagram that the knife is for sale on our website. Twenty minutes later its sold. Still crickets from the original guy.
 
I tried to find a maker to make me the knife of my dreams, according to my specs. Before I was a maker. Now, I didn't contact every maker I possibly could have, but I did have a few conversations, and it seemed like I was getting basically stonewalled, and I really didn't appreciate the feeling. So now that I am a maker, I have taken a number of commissions that some might consider risky (crazy grinds, super tactical type blades, etc.) and so far have had everyone follow through on our agreements.

I started this thread because of a commission I was hired to do, in which it appeared I was not going to get a response from the customer now that the knife is completed. He posted on the forum back in December 2020 looking for a specific type of knife, and I invited him to contact me and discuss his build. In the course of the discussion, we agreed on a small knife similar to one of my existing designs, but with a number of changes he wanted. He agreed to a price of $155, and I had him put down a $35 deposit. He was responsive to emails all the way up to March, and we went back and forth a lot dialing in the design. The knife was finished March 22, and I notified him with pictures, and requested the balance due, and his mailing address.

Crickets.

Messaged him again on the 23rd asking if there were any issues with my description of the finished product or the pictures that needed to change.

Crickets.

Messaged him on the 29th to express my hope that he is not going through something difficult in his life, offering my thoughts and prayers, and asking if he would be kind enough to give me a heads up regarding his intentions with the order.

Crickets.

I sent this message today, and I believe it is perfectly acceptable both legally and morally:

My message said:
Good afternoon _______, if you have not replied because there is something difficult happening in your life, you have my deepest sympathies, whatever it may be. I know what it is like to experience sudden and unexpected hardships. [redacted personal account of a hardship I have just experienced]. That being said, this is my final follow up, and I am giving you notice of this so that you can have a say in the matter. If I don't hear anything back from you by April 17, i.e. Saturday of next week, I will take it as confirmation that you have indeed abandoned the project as your lack of replies to my messages suggests, and forfeited the deposit as compensation for the time I spent emailing back and forth with you and working to dial in the design to your specifications. I will then sell the knife on the exchange for the price we agreed upon, minus the amount of the forfeited deposit in order to move it quickly. With no ill will, or vexation aforethought,

David Mary
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Despite this situation, I still don't feel like I should stop taking commissions. I remember when I couldn't get anyone to make me my "perfect wharncliffe" and how frustrated I felt, and though it may be the right choice for some, I feel like it is not the right choice for me to stop taking custom commissions. I know this type of situation could happen again. If someone wants a crazy design that I could have a hard time selling to anyone else, I think I will still take the commission, but with the understanding that a non-refundable deposit is required. As someone said, it eliminates the tire kickers, and if I get ghosted, then at least I have the materials and labor paid for so am not taking a loss. And it gives people who can't find what they really want from another maker the chance to have it custom made by me.

And the gentleman above has a week to contact me and say "Yes I will stand by our agreement" or "No there is a problem with the knife, and here is what it is, please fix it" - which I will happily do. Or he can default on the notice and I sell the knife at a price minus the amount of the forfeited deposit.
 
Is there any way to give the deposit back and just sell the knife to someone else at full price? Do what you want, and I know deposits are usually forfeit, but I personally would not feel right about keeping his deposit and selling the knife to someone else, unless there was just no way to give the money back.
 
The customer must be aware the item is completed, because he has logged into the forum since I notified him of completion, even though he did not respond to my emails. I recently (three weeks ago) had the most devastating event that has ever happened to me in my decades on this earth, and yet, I continued to fulfill my obligations and honor my agreements. This isn't to be insensitive, because how can I be insensitive, if the customer never ever replied to let me know what is going on? I say this to express that I don't understand the mentality of simply not responding when one clearly has access to the channel of communication we've been using (internet).

N.W. Gean said:
Is there any way to give the deposit back
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Yes.

N.W. Gean said:
and just sell the knife to someone else at full price?
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Sure I could, it's a good knife.

N.W. Gean said:
Do what you want, and I know deposits are usually forfeit, but I personally would not feel right about keeping his deposit and selling the knife to someone else, unless there was just no way to give the money back.
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There is a way to give the deposit back. It would involve the customer actually responding to me before the date I specified, and having something reasonable to say. But I responded to the customer's emails, spent my time taking photos of handle and sheath material to give him every possible option, then set aside what I had for him, meaning I could not use it on other knives, and by the time the knife was completed, the email chain had grown to about sixty messages back and forth. I take customer service very seriously, and want the knife I make for someone to be their instant favorite as soon as they open the box, and everything I did with him was geared toward that mission.

I truly worked for that money, and a certain book that I revere says "The labourer is worthy of his reward." I did that labor for the customer in question, not anyone else. When I sell knives on the exchange, I sell them for a little bit less, because I do not have to follow a deadline, I do not have to set aside materials, or work within someone's specs, and I can change the build on the fly however and whenever I want. A commission is a little more cost, because I set myself a deadline, often spend more on processing, and make sure it is as close to how the customer wants it as I can possibly get it. All that takes time and sometimes requires me to set aside items in my inventory just for them. It is not unjust or vindictive to keep a deposit in this type of situation, it is appropriate compensation for the work already done specifically for that person, at that person's request. So he paid for the customization and restrictions I accepted from him, and I can sell the knife at my exchange prices to someone who did not ask me to go to all that trouble. AFTER the customer defaults on the notice I sent him. If he replies, then anything could happen, depending on what he has to say.
 
Great thread, btw.
Best one I've read in weeks!
Thank you to All who are commenting so far. :D

It's great info for future ref
 
Very reasonable. I meant no offense.

It sounds like you've done everything by the book to earn the deposit. As the book says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and the customer must respect your time and money if you are to respect his.

Take care.
 
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I took no offense my friend. I just felt it appropriate to be transparent about my reasoning. By the time next Saturday comes, it will have been almost a month since his knife was completed, and since I last heard from him. If by then I have heard nothing, I will move on with a clean conscience, knowing I gave him every reasonable opportunity to influence the outcome.
 
Um I don’t know if I’m shocked or impressed... I mean is there an extra 0 missing in the $35 and $155?
 
What?
 
The price I mentioned is the price I meant. I'm nowhere near charging fifteen hundred bucks for a small knife, if that's what you meant. I'm not a world class maker yet like a lot of you guys. Payin' my dues.
 
David Mary said:
The customer must be aware the item is completed, because he has logged into the forum since I notified him of completion, even though he did not respond to my emails. I recently (three weeks ago) had the most devastating event that has ever happened to me in my decades on this earth, and yet, I continued to fulfill my obligations and honor my agreements. This isn't to be insensitive, because how can I be insensitive, if the customer never ever replied to let me know what is going on? I say this to express that I don't understand the mentality of simply not responding when one clearly has access to the channel of communication we've been using (internet).



Yes.



Sure I could, it's a good knife.



There is a way to give the deposit back. It would involve the customer actually responding to me before the date I specified, and having something reasonable to say. But I responded to the customer's emails, spent my time taking photos of handle and sheath material to give him every possible option, then set aside what I had for him, meaning I could not use it on other knives, and by the time the knife was completed, the email chain had grown to about sixty messages back and forth. I take customer service very seriously, and want the knife I make for someone to be their instant favorite as soon as they open the box, and everything I did with him was geared toward that mission.

I truly worked for that money, and a certain book that I revere says "The labourer is worthy of his reward." I did that labor for the customer in question, not anyone else. When I sell knives on the exchange, I sell them for a little bit less, because I do not have to follow a deadline, I do not have to set aside materials, or work within someone's specs, and I can change the build on the fly however and whenever I want. A commission is a little more cost, because I set myself a deadline, often spend more on processing, and make sure it is as close to how the customer wants it as I can possibly get it. All that takes time and sometimes requires me to set aside items in my inventory just for them. It is not unjust or vindictive to keep a deposit in this type of situation, it is appropriate compensation for the work already done specifically for that person, at that person's request. So he paid for the customization and restrictions I accepted from him, and I can sell the knife at my exchange prices to someone who did not ask me to go to all that trouble. AFTER the customer defaults on the notice I sent him. If he replies, then anything could happen, depending on what he has to say.
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I'm so sorry for whatever it is that happened. Good people don't deserve to have bad things happen to them. My thoughts are with you, sir.
 
David Mary said:
I appreciate your words of support.
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David - been following this but not commenting.

first - whatever happened to you, I hope you are ok and able to move forward from it. Feel free to reach out if you need help.

re. The knife order. Seems to me this is purely a moral issue. “Do unto others...”, etc. seems you have done what you can, and then some. I would move forward with a clean conscience. Sell the knife at full price ... and if the person comes back, return the deposit. If the dont, that is their issue.
 
Was it that orange handle Beauty?
Kinda a chef-like edc knife? Haha

*If so...... I think it needs a New home.
;)
 
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