Gold makers mark

jdm61

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
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I have used the searched function on here and used Google and I can not come up with a definitive answer to my question. How do you electroplate a gold makers stamp and how would you get the gold plating down into say the letters that you had electro etched with your Personalizer machine? It that super thin coat of gold resistant to say an mild acid etch like FeCl like solid gold would be? I have seen what appear to be "down in the groove" gold etches on Bill Bagel damascus blades IIRC and I have also seem ones on the surface like on Al Pendry wootz knives. Have any of you guys done this?
 
On my phone but I believe I saw a tutorial about it on the Ernies Stencils site the other day
 
Stamp, mask, plate, and light sand until the gold stands out.

How well it stands up to acid etching I don't know. I thonk it depends on the acid. FeCl? Don't know for sure.

Larry
Tinkerer
 
in terms of acid, gold will stand up to it all. There is only one acid i know of, aqua regia, that can even touch gold. The thing i would be worried about would be how to plate it on there "much more difficult with gold" as well as how well it would stay on.
 
From what I have seen you need to lay down an undercoat like nickel and then out the gold over that for stainless steel.
hellspawn415 said:
in terms of acid, gold will stand up to it all. There is only one acid i know of, aqua regia, that can even touch gold. The thing i would be worried about would be how to plate it on there "much more difficult with gold" as well as how well it would stay on.
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The tutorial on Ernie' site is for the "Bonanza gold" product which is actually bronze powder with some kind carrier and sealer.
phorizt said:
On my phone but I believe I saw a tutorial about it on the Ernies Stencils site the other day
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Thanks, Count. If nothing else, their basic "pen" plating setup cost about 70% as much as the others I have seen. I'm not so sure that i would want to do the acid prep wash on damascus, at least until after I had laid down the nickel layer. It s sounding like a combination of Ernie's stencils with the new masking setup and one of these pen systems would do the trick.
12345678910 said:
I think its done with theses little plating kits - no experience with them though

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Mi...-Pen-Plating-Solution-Acid-Based/335165?Pos=7

Get one of their catalogues, there are hundreds of different kits like that.

Stacy should have the best answers.
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Thanks. From what I have read, the problem with gold is not it staying on, but it being "porous" so if the base metal does something funny, it can leech though. That is apparently why you lay down a layer of the nickel compound first.
hellspawn415 said:
in terms of acid, gold will stand up to it all. There is only one acid i know of, aqua regia, that can even touch gold. The thing i would be worried about would be how to plate it on there "much more difficult with gold" as well as how well it would stay on.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not so sure how sturdy it would be or if it would even work, but what about etching/stamping your maker's mark and then rubbing in some epoxy mixed with gold dust and just wiping off the excess? It seems like it would be relatively stable and could be done at the very end of the knifemaking process, only thing you'd need to clean it up would be some acetone before the epoxy cures.
 
That would likely work for just a name stamp, but if I want to use by round shield mark, i will likely that do do what i do now, which is mark, make and etch the damascus, then use the pen system to plate just the mark. The problem with doing anything at the end of the process with damascus is that the etch eats at the marks just like the rest of the blade even if it is a deep stamp.
NeilJBorja said:
I'm not so sure how sturdy it would be or if it would even work, but what about etching/stamping your maker's mark and then rubbing in some epoxy mixed with gold dust and just wiping off the excess? It seems like it would be relatively stable and could be done at the very end of the knifemaking process, only thing you'd need to clean it up would be some acetone before the epoxy cures.
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Engravers use an undercut method. Then actually drive the gold into the engraving. It does not need to be super deep the get it to stick. I would be worried about plating wearing off with use. A deep etch and a little undercut would go a long way to a superior mark. Just takes practice.
 
Chuck, I know they use the undercut when they are doing inlay, but do you need to also do it for 1/5 to 1 micron thick electroplating?
A C Richards said:
Engravers use an undercut method. Then actually drive the gold into the engraving. It does not need to be super deep the get it to stick. I would be worried about plating wearing off with use. A deep etch and a little undercut would go a long way to a superior mark. Just takes practice.
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No. Different process completely. For a makers mark I feel 1 micron is not enough to really last. It is .00004 thick. I could rub off easily. The ones that really stand out are the ones that etch deep,.005-.010, then do a very light undercut and drive the gold in. You can etch then electroplate in the depression but it won't be flush. Just my preference I guess.
 
JDM,

Are you looking to do this on a volume basis, or just an ocasional blade. I ask because to do it right it is going to take some investment.

From my days in the Printed Circuit Board industry I can help with some of your questions. Ni was used as a barrier between copper conductors and the gold plate to prevent migration of the copper thru the gold, so I'm not sure that you would still need the Nickel. It might still be desireable as it will make the gold look shinier with less actual gold thickness.

There used to be several electroplating shops in Pinellas County, probably would be cheaper to "farm it out" if it's only going to be an ocasional thing.

Jeff
 
Jeff, my reading has indicated that although steel is a lot easier to plate than aluminum, you still need the nickel at least for stainless because the free chrome is a problem. With damascus, I would think that doing a nickel layer might be a good idea since you have some steel that already has nickel and some that doesn't.
Iwannashoot said:
JDM,

Are you looking to do this on a volume basis, or just an ocasional blade. I ask because to do it right it is going to take some investment.

From my days in the Printed Circuit Board industry I can help with some of your questions. Ni was used as a barrier between copper conductors and the gold plate to prevent migration of the copper thru the gold, so I'm not sure that you would still need the Nickel. It might still be desireable as it will make the gold look shinier with less actual gold thickness.

There used to be several electroplating shops in Pinellas County, probably would be cheaper to "farm it out" if it's only going to be an ocasional thing.

Jeff
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A C Richards said:
No. Different process completely. For a makers mark I feel 1 micron is not enough to really last. It is .00004 thick. I could rub off easily. The ones that really stand out are the ones that etch deep,.005-.010, then do a very light undercut and drive the gold in. You can etch then electroplate in the depression but it won't be flush. Just my preference I guess.
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Chcuk, my thinking was do my normal semi-deep electro etch and then try to get the thin gold plating coat down into the bottom goth letters which if I was doing just a name etch. For a shield type logo, i would want it on the surface, so I would probably have to mask using Ernie's normal masking piece, etch the damascus and then plate the logo, perhaps masking the surround are with nail polish before removing the logo mask piece. You would be able to sand any "overspray" after the gold went down like you can with just letters, so it has be be spot on. I'm am trying to figure out perhaps what you would call a more modern method of doing what the straight razor makers have done for ages.
 
I remember a video where they showed how they did it on razors.
Didn't look complicated but maybe they left out some details.
I wish I would remember the company name then I could Google the video.
 
Jens, I have seen that. IIRC, the plating process was simple, but the traditional masking process not so much.
Jens Schuetz said:
I remember a video where they showed how they did it on razors.
Didn't look complicated but maybe they left out some details.
I wish I would remember the company name then I could Google the video.
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JDM,

Ernie's background is in the Circuit Board industry also. The process that he uses to make stencils for etching is very similar to what you need for plating the Ni/Au. Problem is that the electro plating will bleed under the stencil much worse than the etching process does. Thus you plating resist needs to be really bonded to the surface of the steel to prevent this, and then stripped away chemically after plating.


Process is usually something like this:
1) clean metal part
2) coat with photosensitive plating resist
3) expose photo resist using your logo artwork
4) develop away unexposed resist
5) plate area now exposed thru resist
6) strip photo resist

This is a simplified version of the process. There are alot of variables to control in each step in order to get good results.

Another thing to consider is that it sounds like you are wanting to etch your logo first and then plate. Keep in mind that the surface in the etched area is relatively rough and somewhat dirty(ie: hard to clean the etching residues without degrading your photoresist). Your subsequent Ni/Au plating will in all likelyhood not be thick enough to cover the surface roughness enough to fill in the roughness enough to not have a Matte finish to your gold.

I am not saying that it can't be done, just that there are a lot of things to think about. Wish I still had access to a shop it sounds like it would be a fun process to try to perfect.

Jeff
 
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