Good Advice vs Bad Advice

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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Again I have had to post on a thread about a newer maker giving advice on a subject he has no experience in. This isn't fun, because it make me look like a butthole, and it make a nice guy feel a bit bad. Neither is good. I can handle people thinking I'm a butthole, but really hate making people feel bad.

I realize that the temptation to post an answer that you feel is good is strong, but is it really a good answer? Maybe ...maybe not.

The problem is that the person who asked the question will not know, and you may mot know either. The problem multiplies when someone googles "HT for XYZ steel" and gets your post. This can lead to many of the common wrong info that the experienced makers spend hours trying to debunk...only to have the other side say, "But I read where ABCKnifemaker ,on BF, said....."
Just to be fair, I did it too in my earlier days on this forum. I posted on a thread about HT that using Turco would stop decarb. That was true, but the subject was about stainless steel, which would not work with Turco ( Turco is only good to 1500F). My answer was good to me, but might have caused another to ruin a blade with pitting.

Again I will advise that new makers read and learn well before posting advise to others.


If you do not know first hand knowledge of a subject, or are not a specialist in that field, please refrain from giving advice . This is especially true when you imply that you are experienced in the subject. "Saying I read......" is a far cry from saying ,"I usually/normally........" The first may or may not be good advice, and the second may or may not be good advice, and is tied to a false statement.
There is no shame in not posting an answer, and letting those who have skills in the topic do the answering.
 
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I think you are exactly right, and it's a good point.

If the "oldbies" get into a debate on what the correct advice or answer/answers is/are,… just listen and then make up your mind. Try it yourself and see. Experiment...

You can’t always go by the “majority rules” or popular consensus, so you really have to go with what’s right for you, your circumstances, long and short term goals etc.

There are usually several correct and/or incorrect answers to choose from, depending on your personal perspective… However, "hard facts" generally don’t change,... but how you interpret, filter and apply them often does.
 
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I am the maker in question. I would like to apologize to anyone who has had problem because of advice I have given, and let everyone know that I will be working on making more and talking less. thanks to all the people on this forum who have encouraged me and helped me along in this hobby. I hope to meet your expectations and make you feel that the time you have spent was worth it.
 
thegeek, I feel that the help you've given to me on my WIP was very worthy, and did help me considerably. And you replied so promptly- that really helped me gain more progress on my work. Thanks a lot.
 
I'll say as a noob trying to make knife shaped objects - I've found this forum to be both extremely useful and overly harsh on newcomers.

You learn something: either by reading about it or doing it - regardless it's human nature to want to share that knowledge.

To be completely honest it makes me think twice about posting a question, and since we've already established that I am not ready to answer any it devalues the entire forum for me.
 
Um -- another noob knifemaker here :) Is Turco even available? I thought it was pulled from the market over a year ago?

I just bought a 1 lb tub of PBC because I was under the impression that Turco was discontinued...
 
Ryanol said:
I'll say as a noob trying to make knife shaped objects - I've found this forum to be both extremely useful and overly harsh on newcomers.

You learn something: either by reading about it or doing it - regardless it's human nature to want to share that knowledge.

To be completely honest it makes me think twice about posting a question, and since we've already established that I am not ready to answer any it devalues the entire forum for me.
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Exactly. I'm new here and the atmosphere in this area of the forum seems so harsh I haven't even posted a WIP thread for my current (and first) attempt at knife making. Also, just because I don't want you to mail me free supplies, doesn't mean I don't want help. Don't take it the wrong way, I may just not want to give out my address to someone I "just met."

None-the-less, I thank all the very knowledgable and helpful people here who want to help.
 
FTR I have no problem giving out my address or accepting free supplies ;) I also have thick skin so I can handle harsh criticism but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents (probably part of the problem).
 
This place isn't too harsh. You should see the stuff the old guys make new welders do. I keep telling them someone somewhere makes a 3/4" pipe stretcher, and one day, you'll have $10,000 on your credit card and a flatbed will deliver something you thought didn't exist. Some new guys are VERY determined to make a good impression.
 
I hate to say it but a lot of really great makers have left this forum in the last few years. A lot of it was due to attitudes here. I feel sorry for new guy's who post questions on how to get started and their thread turns into a battle ground and they are basicly told that we don't have time for this. Some people feel that if you aren't doing something 100% by the book that you are wasting everyones time and seem intent on proving others wrong( Stacy this is not directed at you at all). There seems to be a bully aspect that has taken over. I am sure that these people know what they are talking about and are probably well meaning but they go about it in the wrong way. Although I love BladeForums and I am thankfull for all of the makers who so freely share their knowlege I have decided that I cannot continue to support this site as it is. We vote with our wallets, remember that this is a public forum and people pay to belong here. If things continue down the same path I will not be renewing my membership.
 
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Stacy's point is well taken and I admit that sometimes I grit my teeth, when I read some of the advice given.
But then I think the digital forums world is made up of the same people that live in the tangible world, There are the nerds, the professors, wise guys and clowns. There are introverts and extroverts there are truth tellers and those that stretch the truth. But it takes all kinds; or as my Aunt Marry used to say "there just are all kinds" :D
Keep in mind; there is no real tangible blade forums, its just space on a server's hard drive. The blade forums is us and that includes all of us as long as we are members in good standing.

So I look at most every thread, I read on the forums, like I'm standing around with a bunch of the guys talking knives; some of the conversation I accept as truth but even that I will get a second opinion on.


I am a lot more knowledgeable than I was when I joined this forum in 04, many people helped me learn and I still cuss that guy who taught me how to edge pack a blade. :o

Fred
 
rocketmann said:
I hate to say it but a lot of really great makers have left this forum in the last few years. A lot of it was due to attitudes here. I feel sorry for new guy's who post questions on how to get started and their thread turns into a battle ground and they are basicly told that we don't have time for this. Some people feel that if you aren't doing something 100% by the book that you are wasting everyones time and seem intent on proving others wrong( Stacy this is not directed at you at all). There seems to be a bully aspect that has taken over. I am sure that these people know what they are talking about and are probably well meaning but they go about it in the wrong way. Although I love BladeForums and I am thankfull for all of the makers who so freely share their knowlege I have decided that I cannot continue to support this site as it is. We vote with our wallets, remember that this is a public forum and people pay to belong here. If things continue down the same path I will not be renewing my membership.
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Or, you could stay and help to shape it the way you think it should be ?


The best feature of a forum is the Wiki effect - the mass contribution of knowledge.

The worst feature is that it's sometimes difficult to sort the good from the bad.


It's true that many have gone. I believe that BF is still the most active forum.
I also see i partly as a loss to Knifedogs

There is definitely now a shift left towards newbie starts rather than advanced masterful techniques.
but - every new knifemaker means growth in the industry and someone who has an appreciation on what it takes to make a custom blade





Can you be more specific on what you feel is bullying?
 
Allow me to offer a different perspective.

Each week a number of people come to this forum and ask an essentially unanswerable question... what's this file made of and how can I turn it into a good knife? The good people of this forum have a number of responses to the unanswerable question. Some will pass along bad advice they once received. Some will offer their perspective based on years of research and experience. And some will just try to help the newbies in any way they can without pretending to have knowledge they don't possess. All are trying to help, none are trying to be harsh.

But the simple fact is that because the question being asked does not have a correct answer, those asking the question feel as if they are being treated harshly. Add to that the fact that their unanswerable question is addressed in MANY posts peppered throughout the forum and immortalized in "the stickies", but is ignored by every mother's son that ventures forth and asks the same question for the umpteenth time... is it really all that surprising that the people who want to be helpful have developed a shorthand for addressing the unanswerable question? I realize this means some of the shortened answers can seem "testy" or "terse"... even "harsh". But if you look at what's being said (and what ISN'T being said), you'll see it's anything BUT harsh. It's an attempt to help someone avoid wasting time and money.

Alas, we cannot always understand how people will interpret our words. When I made the offer of free supplies, it never occurred to me that someone might worry that I'm not trustworthy. Now that I know that's what was going on, the reaction (or more specifically the LACK of a response) makes sense. At that time it just seemed like a newbie giving off attitude, determined to ignore all offers of help. My apologies for misinterpreting your reaction... I hope now you understand MY reaction.

Anyway, I hope this different perspective gives you some insights into how things got to be the way they are and why people respond the way they do. It's important also to know that sometimes the response you seek and most want is the one that is least helpful. You want someone to tell you what the file is made of, and the only way to do that is BS you. Is that helpful? Maybe you think so at the time... but in the long run and in the grander scheme, no it isn't.

- Greg
 
Maybe a STOP HERE FIRST sticky post with a link to Google's search of the bladeforum site would be best. Say something like Welcome to the knifemakers section. Please search here first for the information you are looking for.
 
This thread has been viewed 317 times, I've viewed it 3 times before responding.. Which allows me to believe a lot of people simply don't know if they will give good or bad advice to this thread..As a new maker I will have to say I have personally received good, bad and simply mediocre advice at best.. I have asked questions and have had several 'makers' respond with answers that just don't jive with what I've heard from so and so, or read from such and such.. Opinions at best, when it comes to metalurgy, heat treat etc its a whole other can of worms.. regardless its the inter-lubes take it with a grain of salt.. most of you however offer insanely great advice or point us in the right direction and this I am greatly indebted to you..:thumbup:

I think many try to answer posts because they feel they are contributing to the forum, but I will agree and stand behind the OP on bad advice.. Many newcomers are drawn to the site using google, they may read old threads or become a 1-10 post member and you never see them again and with bad advice they may go and who knows start selling custom/production blades that are substandard in HT etc, thus giving other newbie knife guys a bad taste when it comes to customs or knives in general..

I have a delima right now I'm working through regarding HT, I take in advice but ultimately I will prevail through trial and error, and at that time and only then will I offer sound advice that has worked or not worked for me personally..
 
I run an busy airgun forum and moderate another that is one of the largest airgun forums in the world and have dealt with just about every type of online personality there is. One thing that has become apparent is people are emotional, get their feelings hurt and really dislike when their opinions are not accepted as gospel. In this internet world you need a tough skin and suck it up when strangers do not treat you the way you expect to be treated. That goes for newbies and oldtimers.

The key to a forum that flows is to either contribute because you want to help or just be quiet when you feel the need to criticize and tear someone down. People come to the forum for different reasons, some come to learn, some to share and mentor. Others come to tear down and stir the pot to fill an emptiness inside them.

Blade forums is a great resource but it is a shame when a post is made in the makers forum with hundreds of views and zero to maybe 2 responses. If the knowledgeable makers want to stop a flood of newbies answering questions then they should be the first ones to answer a question and not the last.

And just for the record a few of the well known makers I know do not post here and it is not because of newbies or dumb questions. They get tired of always being challenged and criticized by other makers who are trying to make a reputation for themselves at their expense.

That is what can make a forum feel "Harsh"

Now here is a smiley face:)
 
I have to disagree with you on this. You said yourself that you are new here. First of all, welcome!! Secondly though, I think that you might want to spend a bit more time hanging out and getting to know the place and the people before saying that they are harsh on new guys. I've been through the whole process myself and found this to be a welcoming and helpful group. The key is to do lots of reading and to learn from what has already been asked and posted. Rehashing the most common of topics can get tedious for even the most patient and generous veteran. I think this is a great place to gather some info, share some info, and make friends, but the bottom line is that nobody on this forum will make your knife for you. Ultimately that is going to have to be done by you, the new maker.

Too often I think guys try to get every bit of info on the whole process before they get into the shop and get to work. You don't need to know everything to get started. I suggest to guys to come here, read up on some basics, and to get your hands dirty. Try it out, rely on your own trial and error, see what you can come up with. You should spend a few hours in the shop working on something that's stumping you before you come here for answers. In my opinion, you'll learn better in the long run with your own two hands than you will by sitting at the computer reading and asking questions until you think you know exactly how to do something.

C10darren, to clarify.....when I say "you" in this post I'm really talking to anyone who is just starting out. I'm not trying to single you out:)

c10darren said:
Exactly. I'm new here and the atmosphere in this area of the forum seems so harsh I haven't even posted a WIP thread for my current (and first) attempt at knife making. Also, just because I don't want you to mail me free supplies, doesn't mean I don't want help. Don't take it the wrong way, I may just not want to give out my address to someone I "just met."

None-the-less, I thank all the very knowledgable and helpful people here who want to help.
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Louis, I hear ya. I feel sorry for some of the " newbies" and by the way who decides what a newbie is. I came to this site a year or so ago a part time maker and 15 years in the tool and die business. There are guys on this site who have made maybe a dozen knives and have the balls to call someone a newbie. I made my first knife 10 years ago on a bridgeport mill because I didn't know what a Bader B3 or Wilton grinder was. There is a lot of awesome info here, sadly it gets wasted when a good maker has a crappy attitude. 12345678910 I wouldn't really say bullying, more like high school politics or a clique. You will see small quarrels stock removers vs. forgers, gas furnace vs. electric so on and so forth. My personal experiance is that there are a few makers who absolutely ignore me. Because I may have called them on some bs post. Like I said there is a lot of talent here, but sadly the negativity is really holding up progress. This is why some of the other sites are growing. To the new makers hang in there, I promise this site isn't the be all end all of knifemaking. As I said before I was making knives long before I came here and I am very close to being a full-time maker God willing.
Jason B Stout
 
Jonny Mac,
Well said, that's the best advice read up on some basics, get to work. This is not an overnight trade. It's hard work.
By the way Jonny your knives still kick ass.:D
 
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