Good Advice vs Bad Advice

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Theres that ol sayin "Dont talk the talk unless you walk the walk" I guess thats my advice on giving advice, oh yaa and that other one " the proof is in the puddin" if your makin knives and givin advice put some knives in your gallery, so people can get an idea of your skill set. JMHO:D GHaile
 
GTH11 said:
Theres that ol sayin "Dont talk the talk unless you walk the walk" I guess thats my advice on giving advice, oh yaa and that other one " the proof is in the puddin" if your makin knives and givin advice put some knives in your gallery, so people can get an idea of your skill set. JMHO:D GHaile
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:thumbup::thumbup:
 
JBS TOOLMAKER said:
L

... but sadly the negativity is really holding up progress. This is why some of the other sites are growing.
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Positive attitude isn't everything.

It has to be tempered with knowledge and skill.

I believe that Moderators of a forum, or subforum should have enough knowledge on the topics at hand to effectively moderate the discussion.

For example, when someone asks, "What do you think?" Should it be all "attaboys", or should there be a real fact based discussion that helps participants advance their skills.

Have a look at the KD photography section.
I was turfed specifically for being too critical for pointing out obvious shadows on photos from someone who was soliciting for paid photo work.
& looks like those comments were deleted, but the skills are still not there.
 
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The negativity I'm referring to is the bs between experianced makers. Constructive criticism applied to a student is crucial. I saw a post yesterday where a member basicly asked " why didn't you direct that newbie to the stickys ? " would you want that to be the answer to your first knifemaking question?
 
I guess I will chime in on this.

I as a new maker have been helped out considerably. I haven't even finished my first knife, it takes me a while because I have found that I want it to turn out good. I bought some extra cheap steel and handle materials to tinker and practice so I know what to expect. I have learned much from doing and much from reading and getting personal help from makers and emails.

As a new maker I have posted questions, emailed questions and after thinking about them it is kind of hard to find the info on the search sometimes because I don't put the right search terms into the search bar. Thats ok and I have come to terms with that and eventually I find the right term and go that direction, but I am still here and at times it is really hard to put a tone to some of the posts (which is part of the digital world, unless you know the other maker).

I can understand what Stacy is trying to get at: no matter how cheap steel is or the other materials are, it takes a "ton" of time and effort for me to get to HT and then way more time to finish the knife, and then I mess it up because I did something wrong. HOWEVER! I am going to mess up anyways I have found out. That is part of learning for me at least.

I don't post much because I want to contribute in a positive way, and I don't feel like I know much, but I post every now and then when I want to chime in on something and be a part of the community. I feel like there is a fine line...... I feel people should post and discuss, but I don't want to mess my knife up. But learning is learning and it will happen. Lessons learned.
 
12345678910 said:
Positive attitude isn't everything.

It has to be tempered with knowledge and skill.

I believe that Moderators of a forum, or subforum should have enough knowledge on the topics at hand to effectively moderate the discussion.

For example, when someone asks, "What do you think?" Should it be all "attaboys", or should there be a real fact based discussion that helps participants advance their skills.
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I agree with you Count, the way I think and work I have to hear about it this way but sometimes I need to physically see it.

One time I saw someone ask about "what do you think about my grinds" and some of the experienced makers gave their truthful opinion. The newer maker could have taken it the wrong way but I believe that in any setting of your peers that it should be harsh sometimes because you need to know what is expected.
 
In the example of mystery steel ID's, and questions about specific HT info, what may help is if you guys who have been here a while, simply directed the person asking the question to where the information is, w/ out actually answering the question. Maybe provided a direct link to the Sticky or previous thread, maybe in a private or visitor message if possible. Also, IMO it is ok to just ignore certain questions/threads where it is obvious the person is just fishing for a quick and easy answer, or trying to start an argument.

EX 1: Can be ignored
NEWB_TACTICALSHADOW 333: "Hey uhhhhhh...I stole a metal bar from(insert big box store here), I made a knife and used a torch on it.....duhhhh...why don't it cut stuff??????????"

EX 2: Serious question
NEWTOKNIFEMAKING77: "I would like to make my first knife, I chose 1084 steel and purchased it from(insert steel supplier here..*cough*...ALDO...*cough*), I tried googling HT info but found a lot of different answers. Is there a "best" HT for 1084, if so could someone direct me to the correct info. Thank you."

MASTERSMITH22: Welcome to BF NEWTOKNIFEMAKING, glad to see someone new take a serious interest in this craft. There is loads of information on all of the proccess of knifemaking, including HT and steel choice here on BF. You can find a lot of the info you are looking for in the Stickies at the top of(insert forum here), also using the search engine might reveal some answers to questions you haven't considered yet, and it will prevent repeat threads which helps all of us. Thank you for coming to BF, stay a while and learn how knives are made and why we love making them so much.

I understand the examples are a bit exagderated, but I digress. For EX 2 answer their question w/ out actually answering their question. This will weed out those serious about this craft from the others, and will prevent the pissing matches between seasoned makers, over whose process is better. Regarding EX#1, I have not been here that long but even I can spot those kinds of questions most of the time, and just don't provide an answer.

Active participation from the pros on BF can eliminate(or greatly reduce) these issues, no matter how frustrating it can be. If you give a new guy a direct/correct answer and they argue or piss on it, disengage, don't argue with them. When a top maker leaves due to frustration with newbs attitudes and "dumb questions" they allow the problem to get worse.
 
Dave Behrens said:
Active participation from the pros on BF can eliminate(or greatly reduce) these issues, no matter how frustrating it can be. If you give a new guy a direct/correct answer and they argue or piss on it, disengage, don't argue with them. When a top maker leaves due to frustration with newbs attitudes and "dumb questions" they allow the problem to get worse.
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:thumbup::thumbup:
 
Stick around, Rocketman, This forum really needs makers like you.
I'm a newbe, only been making knives about 7 yrs. Full time for 2 yrs. And I don't give advice because what I do, I do in my shop with my tools with my trial and error to guide me. Maybe your whole setup is diff and you don't want to do it like I do.
If I see an honest question that has no answer or a stupid answer then I will say something, but I have to be real careful because of my temper.
If you guys really work at making knives and use your head, it don't take very long at all to figure out who to listen to---like rocketman, you can take it to the bank. Jerry
 
This thread spurred some very good discussion:thumbup: That being said I'd like to simplify things for everyone who loves this craft.

It's all about what you do with the steel......;)

First you make this. (profile trimmings)

steelbyproducts004.jpg


Then you make this. (bandsaw dust!)

steelbyproducts005.jpg


Then you make some of this......(drill press curly cues)

steelbyproducts001.jpg


After that, make a little bit of this. (grinder dust from the water bucket)

steelbyproducts010.jpg


And finally, you make this! :)

MDPXLBlackandOrange003.jpg


So you see, just make the right by-products of knife making in the right order and it's smooth sailing!!

In all seriousness I wanted to remind all of the new makers that this craft is about passion. I have a lot to learn about making knives but I'm confident enough to tell any new maker that this is about passion and not to forget it. You don't have to be a seasoned veteran to fall in love with making knives. To all the newer makers, remember to keep it fun, keep it creative, be passionate about what you do, and let your imagination run wild. Take guidance and advice from the vets when you can get it, but rely on yourself to be the driving force behind what you do in your shop. In the end, it's your knife with your name on it and when something isn't right about it, you can't say that someone on the internet told you to do it that way and so you did. You will have to take responsibility for your own product so learning through personal trial and error and doing your own field testing is really important!!

Have fun!
 
I know it would be a boring forum, but I have found the old question every one should stop and ask them selves " did I stop and listen or wait to talk?"

Think about it and get back to me.

I don't have a prob with any forums:) I have learned far more on the search button than by asking questions:) good job bldsmith!
 
i have seen noobs ask a question and get plenty of replys but their question still goes unanswered. there has been a few times i have contacted them by email or phone and after talking for a few they tell me that i answered their question. i find these members skipping making a post and just ask me instead.
 
rocketmann said:
I hate to say it but a lot of really great makers have left this forum in the last few years. A lot of it was due to attitudes here. I feel sorry for new guy's who post questions on how to get started and their thread turns into a battle ground and they are basicly told that we don't have time for this. Some people feel that if you aren't doing something 100% by the book that you are wasting everyones time and seem intent on proving others wrong( Stacy this is not directed at you at all). There seems to be a bully aspect that has taken over. I am sure that these people know what they are talking about and are probably well meaning but they go about it in the wrong way. Although I love BladeForums and I am thankfull for all of the makers who so freely share their knowlege I have decided that I cannot continue to support this site as it is. We vote with our wallets, remember that this is a public forum and people pay to belong here. If things continue down the same path I will not be renewing my membership.
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This comment along with Ryanol and C10darren's pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've been a "registered" user for over a year and a lurker for some time before that.

As an Internet Marketer, I've built, bought, owned and sold 5 forums and moderated a few more since the late 90's and can tell you that if a forum exists long enough, it will take on its own personality. This particular sub forum has its personality and like other newbies have pointed out, it's a cold and harsh one. I have pretty thick skin, but a lot of people don't. I believe that's why other forums like KD are growing. It has a more laid back and welcoming feel to it and many of the top makers are there and freely offer their advice. I'm sure there's some riff that goes on, but I haven't seen it. That could be because I don't visit every single sub forum there, I dunno. (I also don't visit every single sub forum here either!)

As for the stickies, well, it's been proven time and time again by marketing surveys that people don't read them for a variety of reasons. The last survey I saw on the subject (which was a few years ago) stated that less than 10 percent of visitors will read stickies. Some of the most popular reasons were that the info was outdated, broken links or that they felt like the info in the stickies didn't answer their question to the extent they were comfortable with. I've seen all of these issues in the stickies at the top of this sub forum. My suggestion to those who are quick to respond by typing "go read the stickies" is to look over the stickies and keep them updated and relevant! When I see stickies or a forum post dated years in the past, I have to wonder how useful that info is. Yeah, I know some info is timeless, especially in this industry, but others don't realize this. There's a reason many forums have done away with stickies....

There seems to be a "you have to do it this way precisely or your wrong" attitude among many makers here. As with just about anything in life, there's more than one way to do something and achieve the correct results. Just because another maker doesn't agree with how you do it, doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it different!

I've seen users here chastised because they put "Knife Maker" in their forum profile as an occupation and didn't know how to heat treat a particular metal. What is a knife maker? And why does it matter what a person puts in their profile? Just as with stickies, forum profiles aren't read that much. (I read some because I'm just a curious old fart) If one can make an pointed knife object with an edge, they're a knife maker by definition!

Like other newbies, I've received some good advice from some of the people here. But this constant badgering of newbs to go read the stickies or brow beating 'em because they picked up some steel from a big box store or an old file and tried to make a knife out of it isn't good for anyone. Some of you people use more energy typing out a response that they should go read the stickies or berating a poster than if you simply told them that mild steel from the big box stores isn't suited for knife making!

Just as there's no shame in not answering a question because you may not have first hand experience in a subject, there's also no shame is not answering a question because you have nothing positive or constructive to say! There's also no shame in not reading a forum post with a title you've seen a thousand and one times. This way you won't be tempted to post something negative!
 
Mudbug007 said:
As for the stickies, well, it's been proven time and time again by marketing surveys that people don't read them for a variety of reasons. The last survey I saw on the subject (which was a few years ago) stated that less than 10 percent of visitors will read stickies. Some of the most popular reasons were that the info was outdated, broken links or that they felt like the info in the stickies didn't answer their question to the extent they were comfortable with. I've seen all of these issues in the stickies at the top of this sub forum.
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I found this comment interesting. 90% of the people don't read the stickies because they are broken, outdated or don't answer the specific question? How the heck would they know that, since they don't bother to read them? I think a more correct wording is they don't read the stickies because they ASSUME the stickies are broken, outdated, or don't answer their specific question.

But frankly, I think even that is BS. They don't read them. Full stop. No further explanation is necessary. As a forum dynamic it is undeniable. Attempts to explain it for the 90th percentile are pointless. Each person has their own reasons for doing what they do... rationalizations and justifications after the fact notwithstanding, those reasons are as individual as the people themselves.

- Greg
 
You forgot the pile of used up sandpaper:eek:



jonnymac44 said:
This thread spurred some very good discussion:thumbup: That being said I'd like to simplify things for everyone who loves this craft.

It's all about what you do with the steel......;)

First you make this. (profile trimmings)

steelbyproducts004.jpg


Then you make this. (bandsaw dust!)

steelbyproducts005.jpg


Then you make some of this......(drill press curly cues)

steelbyproducts001.jpg


After that, make a little bit of this. (grinder dust from the water bucket)

steelbyproducts010.jpg


And finally, you make this! :)

MDPXLBlackandOrange003.jpg


So you see, just make the right by-products of knife making in the right order and it's smooth sailing!!

In all seriousness I wanted to remind all of the new makers that this craft is about passion. I have a lot to learn about making knives but I'm confident enough to tell any new maker that this is about passion and not to forget it. You don't have to be a seasoned veteran to fall in love with making knives. To all the newer makers, remember to keep it fun, keep it creative, be passionate about what you do, and let your imagination run wild. Take guidance and advice from the vets when you can get it, but rely on yourself to be the driving force behind what you do in your shop. In the end, it's your knife with your name on it and when something isn't right about it, you can't say that someone on the internet told you to do it that way and so you did. You will have to take responsibility for your own product so learning through personal trial and error and doing your own field testing is really important!!

Have fun!
Click to expand...

I try not to give advice, but instead I try to share my experiences as a newbie. The one mistake I never made was trying to make a knife from mystery steel. I did experiment with some techniques on mild steel, wood and other things, but every knife and practice piece has been made from a known steel. The hardest thing about getting advise is knowing who is giving it to you. Anyone can buy a knifemakers membership, and not all of the experienced makers have one. This leads to new people possibly following the wrong advise, and the people who know what they are talking about feeling like they are being ignored, so they just don't offer up any more.

I was lucky when I first started here, there was a good number of names I recognized and I knew that what they were telling me was solid. Now that key group of well know names is much smaller. It makes me wonder if there was any way that the people that have proven themselves at giving good advice could be be given some sort of Trusted, Adviser, or Teacher status by the Mods just to highlight their contribution to the forum
 
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