Good Advice vs Bad Advice

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You have to possess a certain amount of information in order to ask an intelligent question.

You have to possess a certain amount of information in order to answer an intelligent question.

You have to possess a certain amount of credibility in order to be taken serious.

I possess none of the above, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Robert
 
Speaking as a guy who's not quite a total newbie and definitely not an expert:

There are some controversies in the knifemaking world.

By that, I mean there are some challenges that can be solved in more than one way, and people seem to split into camps based on which solution they prefer (no pun intended).

It's not as if one approach is always right and the other is always wrong. I think it would help if we assume newbies are unaware of the pros and cons of the different approaches and are provided with adequate information to decide for themselves which approach is preferable.

Understanding the approaches and being honest about the reasons for pursuing one path versus another permits respect for the differences.

I think this would be good advice and reduce, or perhaps even eliminate, the hostility issues.
 
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Dammit, George! I knew I was forgetting something :o

You make some good points in this post:thumbup:

unky_gumbi said:
You forgot the pile of used up sandpaper:eek:





I try not to give advice, but instead I try to share my experiences as a newbie. The one mistake I never made was trying to make a knife from mystery steel. I did experiment with some techniques on mild steel, wood and other things, but every knife and practice piece has been made from a known steel. The hardest thing about getting advise is knowing who is giving it to you. Anyone can buy a knifemakers membership, and not all of the experienced makers have one. This leads to new people possibly following the wrong advise, and the people who know what they are talking about feeling like they are being ignored, so they just don't offer up any more.

I was lucky when I first started here, there was a good number of names I recognized and I knew that what they were telling me was solid. Now that key group of well know names is much smaller. It makes me wonder if there was any way that the people that have proven themselves at giving good advice could be be given some sort of Trusted, Adviser, or Teacher status by the Mods just to highlight their contribution to the forum
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I'm 65 years old and don't think I'll live long enough to ever be an "old hand" in all the aspects of knife making or Blade Smithing so I figure I'll just make it a learning curve. So far this is the best site Ive come across for a lot of good information and since discovering it Ive read a couple of books now written by certified bladesmiths, hoping to read many more as I find them.

One thing I have learned about metal fab'ing after 45 years in the the machine shop is that no one person is going to have all the right information and that a margin of error in good advice does exists. Ive seen many a shop and they all have their "lunch room engineers" and that is not the same as someone who has stepped out into the shop and made something good happen. Advice that is a little inaccurate is not a bad thing and its nature is to sort itself out ....as it did with the heat treat advice. One last comment, anyone who accepts advice also has a degree of responsibility for determining the accuracy of the advice if they intend to use it.
This is a great forum TOP NOTCH.
 
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From Tennessee said:
One thing I have learned about metal fab'ing after 45 years in the the machine shop is that no one person is going to have all the right information and that a margin of error in good advice does exists. Ive seen many a shop and they all have their "lunch room engineers" and that is not the same as someone who has stepped out into the shop and made something good happen. Advice that is a little inaccurate is not a bad thing and its nature is to sort itself out ....as it did with the heat treat advice. One last comment, anyone who accepts advice also has a degree of responsibility for determining the accuracy of the advice if they intend to use it.
This is a great forum TOP NOTCH.
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So very true. :thumbup:
 
me2 said:
This place isn't too harsh. You should see the stuff the old guys make new welders do. I keep telling them someone somewhere makes a 3/4" pipe stretcher, and one day, you'll have $10,000 on your credit card and a flatbed will deliver something you thought didn't exist. Some new guys are VERY determined to make a good impression.
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Once upon a time at the fab shop, I built a left handed smokeshifter just to shut the old guy up who kept hassling the new hires. Diamond plate and steel pipe, worked extremely well at diverting smoke to the left. ;)
 
Just to be clear,
I understand that people will keep posting the same questions, even if that question is answered many times and in the stickies.
I understand that there are different opinions and methods in knifemaking, and have no problem with those subjects being discussed civilly.

What I was referring to is people answering the questions who have no knowledge of that subject....especially when they imply that they do that procedure regularly.

Dave was hitting on the other side of the problem -
Some posts should be ignored...but they won't.

KnifeNewbHFSteel1010 will post about his mild steel knife that he can't seem to make work.
There will be 30 views, with no replies...as it should be.
Then a maker with 30 posts in the three months he has been on BF will post:
"i made my first knife last night from a fence post i found in my grampas garage. i know it is high carbon steal because it is old and has rust.i did the ht with my dads bic lighter and the blade turned a cool blue color, so i knowi got the ht right. it may not be the best way to make a knife but it worked good for me. BTW, that is a super nice knife you made."
A maker who has made his living selling his knives for the past twenty years will then post that the OP and the responder both have knives that will not harden or stay sharp, make the standard recommendations and point to the stickies.
Next, twenty newer makers will post that the old guys are just fuddy-duddies and to ignore them and their mean comments. And, all the posters will affirm how great the knife is. The older makers will just move on to other threads, and the thread will go on for three pages.

There are two problems here:
First - it is human nature to want peer approval and resist any critique.
Second- It is human nature to run with the pack, and ignore the voices of the few, especially if they tell you
Sadly, neither one will usually help you get started in knifemaking, especially if the folks who could help don't bother.

Finally , it is the job of the Moderators to try and spot posting by trolls and those who are making false claims. We read a lot more of the total posts than most folks do. When a person says, I always use XYZ at 123 with ABC...and I know that he is on knife number three and hasn't done a HT yet, I usually send a PM and point out the value of listening before speaking. If it persists, I mention the paradox publicly. If it is becoming a problem, I make a thread on the problem. I don't really expect most folks to recognize themselves as part of the problem, but getting it out in the open will slow it down for a while. The problem will always increase whenever school is out.
 
We have a different ideas of what "trolls" are.

Perhaps there are a lot more trollish posts that are being moderated off the pages before I see them.

In the example I saw that preceded this post I believe a suggestion of tempering at 400-425 was given and was chastised. Reading the expert link given subsequently yields a temperature of 400, so the question then becomes was he chastised for sharing knowledge or because he hasn't earned the right to share that knowledge?

To me the bigger issue: is a person capable of gaining and sharing knowledge by reading about a subject or only by doing? The answer is probably a combination of both but it seems to me that anybody without "X" experience is prohibited from answering. It would be nice to know what "X" is?
 
I think "X" would be actual hands-on experience with the subject.

Example: Someone starts a thread, asking about hamons. I have very little experience in bringing out a proper hamon. Could I look up some answers pretty quick and answer as if I've done it dozens of times over? Asolutely... and sound pretty darn convincing. Is the information correct? Yes. Is it honest for me to present it that way? I don't believe it is, when there are folks like Nick Wheeler who have "LIVED" these skills and can truly answer from personal experience.

When I post a question, want to hear advice from makers who have a reasonable amount of personal experience. Anybody can Google a 52100 HT recipe and find 7 different procedures from anonymous interwebz gurus... I want to tap into verifiable results from live interaction with makers who have been there. When someone implies they have experience but is simply regurgitating info they've read, there is a certain level of deceit that is both irresponsible and dangerous.

That is not to say there is no place for well read but "experience lacking" folks to post. They just have to be intellectually honest and transparent when sharing ideas, opinions, etc...

Rick
 
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The post in reference stated:
"450 is a little high. I usually would aim for 400-425. "

That info was fine...but the statement was not true. The poster has only done a few blades in the short time he has been making knives.
His statement implies that he has experience in HT and has run enough knives out the door to give "USUALLY" some meaning. Both are not the case.
Since I have conversed back and forth with the person, I used his post as an example. He understands that the criticism is meant as constructive.

As I have posted several times - It is not the info being stated that I have concern with. It is the posting of that info from people without the experience to understand whether it is the right answer or not.
 
I do, for the most part, aim for 400-425. 375 is for very small knives, 400 for medium and 425 for big stuff. if "usually" was the problem, then I can go back an edit it to "when I do it, I aim for 400-425. Would this be preferable?
 
No need to change it Steve. I am sorry I brought that out in public...and I apologize to you.

It is probably time to close this thread.
 
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