Good idea or Bad ???

Magnussen said:
I have gone out on a limb with customer designs... it definately has to do with my confidence in the customer as well.

Take Pit for example...

It's no wonder that he gets his designs made. He puts in his time out on the trail and isn't afraid to get down and dirty or naked and snowy for that matter... lol. I'm sure that whatever cock-a-mamie design he comes up with stems from trial, error and necessity. As goofy or stupid his knives may look.... they most likely serve his purpose in some idiotic way.

Pit is good peoples and I would happily hammer out one of his senseless mockeries of metal... not because I agree with his assinine logic but because I respect him.:p:thumbup:

Rick
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Aah thanks buddy, I feel a group hug coming on....just let me slip outta these clothes now !:D
 
Very good idea Pit. I think I know where you're head is at regards this and totally understand why you would want to have that thread here.

Maybe if the prospective buyer was to not only list that they want a camp/field knife but to also list it's intended uses. Maybe giving a few examples of knives they've used/seen/like etc.

I think that would keep it here rather than the knifemaker section, or at least give it more of a chance of staying here.
 
Magnussen said:
I have gone out on a limb with customer designs... it definately has to do with my confidence in the customer as well.

Take Pit for example...

It's no wonder that he gets his designs made. He puts in his time out on the trail and isn't afraid to get down and dirty or naked and snowy for that matter... lol. I'm sure that whatever cock-a-mamie design he comes up with stems from trial, error and necessity. As goofy or stupid his knives may look.... they most likely serve his purpose in some idiotic way.

Pit is good peoples and I would happily hammer out one of his senseless mockeries of metal... not because I agree with his assinine logic but because I respect him.:p:thumbup:

Rick
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beer everywhere.......ROTFLMAO! :D:D:D:D
 
Magnussen said:
That is one way to look at it. I find your approach to be a bit to agressive and cost driven. If that is what is important to you, I suggest you look into production knives. Custom makers can't really compete like that, or at least shouldn't be made to. "Puting more power back into the hands of the consumer to drive down pricing" will only put more custom makers out of business. Joe Maker, sitting in his shop working freehand on one knife at a time can't play the same game as Peter Production with a fully automated set-up. Those looking have a "truly custom" knife must allow the maker to do what he feels is best for the knife, not what is the quickest and cheapest way to pump them out. I think if folks jump in with the intent to drive down pricing and get cool customs for cheap, it won't make it far. Having a custom knife made is much more than just getting a cutting tool. If artists had to make a living, competeing to sell their paintings for the cost of materials and a bit of a mark-up, there soon wouldn't be any artists left.


The whole "fun to play around with" statement kinda doesn't sit right with me, either. These guys would be taking the time to quote... it should be taken seriously.

Rick
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I had the exact same reaction to that post. I thoroughly appreciate your philosophy, sir.
 
Magnussen said:
That is one way to look at it. I find your approach to be a bit to agressive and cost driven. If that is what is important to you, I suggest you look into production knives. Custom makers can't really compete like that, or at least shouldn't be made to. "Puting more power back into the hands of the consumer to drive down pricing" will only put more custom makers out of business. Joe Maker, sitting in his shop working freehand on one knife at a time can't play the same game as Peter Production with a fully automated set-up. Those looking have a "truly custom" knife must allow the maker to do what he feels is best for the knife, not what is the quickest and cheapest way to pump them out. I think if folks jump in with the intent to drive down pricing and get cool customs for cheap, it won't make it far. Having a custom knife made is much more than just getting a cutting tool. If artists had to make a living, competeing to sell their paintings for the cost of materials and a bit of a mark-up, there soon wouldn't be any artists left.


The whole "fun to play around with" statement kinda doesn't sit right with me, either. These guys would be taking the time to quote... it should be taken seriously.

Rick
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A couple of points then:

You have wound together two things “art” and “business” and I would separate them. If a business goes to the wall because of the way they conduct their business on the available market I don't care. I freely admit I am very aggressive in that regard. I don't find it reasonable to treat say valve amp makers any differently to tire manufacturers just because valve amps are more interesting / appealing to me. If I started down that road I'd soon end up in a very arbitrary mashup with some businesses getting latitude I wouldn't afford others. That's too whimsical for me.

As for there not being any artists left, I'm totally unconvinced of that. Creative people will always create. I think the whole hobbyist scene is a testimony to that. One may not be able to make money at selling paintings but it doesn't stop one painting. Nobody should feel compelled to pay extra just so the artist can draw an income from it too. That would be to confuse art with business.

"fun to play around with" mmm, in hindsight “fun” was probably the not the optimal word, I'll go with “illuminating” instead. I figure in that scenario, with two blades that were for all practical purposes indistinguishable save for one having the Micarta and one having some cheap wood, yet the Micarta one was at least three times the price, that would be illuminating. And so on.
 
You would separate Art and Business because Art is not your Business. Do you think art should only be a passtime for people with real jobs?

Do you think the guy selling his own oil paintings in the market square should have his prices in line with the guy selling framed prints across the way? I mean they are both objects you hang on a wall, right. Just like a custom Koyote Bushcrafter and production Mora are both cutting tools. Is the price difference because the Koyote is the better tool? Not to the diehard Mora fans. (no offence Christof, I'll get to the point) It's because when Christof makes a knife he is personally cutting, shaping, grinding, heat treating, finishing, handling and testing YOUR blade. Each blade he makes is a little different from the next.... you truly have a one of a kind piece.

Not everybody can appreciate that enough to fork over the cash.... but you should at least be able to make the distinction. I'm not a "painting" kind of guy..... I just about fall asleep everytime my wife drags me through a gallery. I don't see the point in spending big money on a wall hanging. I can, however, appreciate the time and talent that goes into these pieces and why they cost what they do.

If you lived close, I would invite you over to the shop to follow a knife from start to finish. I calculated my operation costs a few times (removing material, shop, equipment, tooling) to get a better idea of what I needed to make to stay in business. Based on my pricing at that time, it came out to about $9/hr. Can you make a decent living on $9/hr?


Rick
 
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Bushman5 said:
I would like makers to think outside the box more, and be more open to the customers ideas, rather than saying, "that cant be done" or "i dont like that idea, so it cant be done." or "thats too thick, it will never work" or "that hardware is too big" etc etc tc

etc etc

no offence. Its just that i know how i want a knife to look, and trying to get the maker to see that is extremely difficult.
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Well you have to relize that not all makers are set up for all types of requests. I prefer corby bolts to hold my scales and if a maker doesn't or can't use them, then I'll move to the next guy. Now if your saying a maker won't do it because he just doesn't like the idea, then tell him off and move to the next guy. :)

To me Pits idea sound like a good one but it seems like one of those things that would eventually break down and die out. Now I think when a guy asks about this thing we should sus out what he really wants and then tell him to start a thread in the makers section titled somethimg like "Need a knife built." Then he can post his requirements and makers can decide to accept it.
 
Similar movements have been happening all over the internet for the last decade. It can lead to some interesting results occasional but I have to agree that in the end it really takes the art out of it.

For example in software development, 2 guys can write the code to make a result happen. The young guy asks for alot less money because hey, he is poor and just needs food. He will sit whoring himself out for pennies on the dollar. The code is functional.

The artisan codemonkey who has been writing script for the last 20 years takes on the same code and can do it in half the time. His is also functional but it is also beautiful. he knows the shortcuts, how to make the code more elegant and run faster. Yet per the specs the code is simply functional or non functional.

Same with the knife maker. Whats more important? The signatures of the craftsman and his artistry or a simply functional piece? Why would a craftsman enter a bidding contest with a guy just starting out , or against another craftsman? Most of the artisans I know have backlogs of work from people who seek them out.

Their work often gets auctioned off to people willing to compete for a chance to buy the work, not the other way around.

Where you get really interesting results is when you collaborate and bring a few talented people together to solve a problem as a group. Thats where you get out of the box designs that are also crafted well, and highly functional.

I would spin the idea and create a place where the center of interest is for a group of knife makers to create virtual teams that must consist of varying skill levels or backgrounds. Challenge them with a problem. Create the best all around 7inch camping knife with these qualities A, B, C, D etc. It must be able to complete this series of tasks and tests X, Y, Z. The teams then compete against eachother to create a design that is within specs and can be judged on several qualities. Functions, groundbreaking design, artistry etc. The blade that has done the best across all the tests and judging wins.

The community as a whole can judge the result, blades get auctioned off for a knifeforum charity or fundraising endeavor. The resulting designs become open community property. If you want your knife maker to make the design from a contest , he or she only has to look up the specs.

Now you get great designs, retain the art, pass on knowledge from old hands to knew, and freshen up old eyes with new ideas, give back to a good cause, put designs in the marketplace so all can reap the rewards on a varied level of price and production and have created some one of a kind blades that will enjoy some really cool history.

my 2c
 
Magnussen said:
You would separate Art and Business because Art is not your Business. Do you think art should only be a passtime for people with real jobs?

Do you think the guy selling his own oil paintings in the market square should have his prices in line with the guy selling framed prints across the way? I mean they are both objects you hang on a wall, right. Just like a custom Koyote Bushcrafter and production Mora are both cutting tools. Is the price difference because the Koyote is the better tool? Not to the diehard Mora fans. (no offence Christof, I'll get to the point) It's because when Christof makes a knife he is personally cutting, shaping, grinding, heat treating, finishing, handling and testing YOUR blade. Each blade he makes is a little different from the next.... you truly have a one of a kind piece.

Not everybody can appreciate that enough to fork over the cash.... but you should at least be able to make the distinction. I'm not a "painting" kind of guy..... I just about fall asleep everytime my wife drags me through a gallery. I don't see the point in spending big money on a wall hanging. I can, however, appreciate the time and talent that goes into these pieces and why they cost what they do.

If you lived close, I would invite you over to the shop to follow a knife from start to finish. I calculated my operation costs a few times (removing material, shop, equipment, tooling) to get a better idea of what I needed to make to stay in business. Based on my pricing at that time, it came out to about $9/hr. Can you make a decent living on $9/hr?


Rick
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I agree with Rick for the most part. Knives are the one thing I enjoy enough to pay a premium for artistic interpretation. What a better art to enjoy then a tool you actually use. The part I have to disagree with is the one of a kind issue. I would imagine my Koster bushcraft is more uniform with the other bushcrafts then any production knives. ;)
 
Magnussen said:
You would separate Art and Business because Art is not your Business. Do you think art should only be a passtime for people with real jobs?

Do you think the guy selling his own oil paintings in the market square should have his prices in line with the guy selling framed prints across the way? I mean they are both objects you hang on a wall, right. Just like a custom Koyote Bushcrafter and production Mora are both cutting tools. Is the price difference because the Koyote is the better tool? Not to the diehard Mora fans. (no offence Christof, I'll get to the point) It's because when Christof makes a knife he is personally cutting, shaping, grinding, heat treating, finishing, handling and testing YOUR blade. Each blade he makes is a little different from the next.... you truly have a one of a kind piece.

Not everybody can appreciate that enough to fork over the cash.... but you should at least be able to make the distinction. I'm not a "painting" kind of guy..... I just about fall asleep everytime my wife drags me through a gallery. I don't see the point in spending big money on a wall hanging. I can, however, appreciate the time and talent that goes into these pieces and why they cost what they do.

If you lived close, I would invite you over to the shop to follow a knife from start to finish. I calculated my operation costs a few times (removing material, shop, equipment, tooling) to get a better idea of what I needed to make to stay in business. Based on my pricing at that time, it came out to about $9/hr. Can you make a decent living on $9/hr?


Rick
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No I don't believe any such thing. What I do believe is there is a conflict of interest between buyer and seller. I believe a person is at liberty to offer their wares or services for whatever they like. I believe if that person prices themselves out the marker then so what. Markets are competitive. Nature of the beast.

I would apply the same thing to other artists. On one of the photography forums I'm on people give away photos free, even photos taken with Hasselblads. By contrast I sometimes follow a link to a site and someone is charging for the kind of photos one can pick up on Flicker. Good luck to all of them. If somewhere amongst all that a guy can find a path to drawing enough to count as a salary good luck to him. What I object to is the approach that says “my pic has a right to X amount of bux”. It doesn't. It just gets what someone is willing to pay for it. In a competitive market that might not be very much, ho hum learn a new skill.

Similarly, we could look at actors. Some aspiring thespian may think his time and effort is worth Hollywood money. Good luck to him if he can get it. If he can't and has to wait tables for his living because he's priced himself out the market then tough.

I think there's a very strong risk of sticking the cart before the horse with this. One can turn professional at something when one is drawing enough money from the market to be professional. One can't decide one wants to call oneself a professional and then not make any money at it. If it worked that way I'd call myself a professional marijuana sampler and expect people to pay me well for it.

In sum, I only have the interests of the consumer in mind when it comes to the money. We each make a living somehow and I care as much about how a knifemaker feeds himself as I do the struggling actor in the garret. If someone wants to pay them a great deal of money then great. If consumers decide a person's goods or services are overpriced compared to alternatives then great too. Dog eat dog. The subject of this thread to my mind is just the opportunity for competition amongst makers and the increased opportunity for value for money to the consumer. If someone wanted to hold out for more money then perhaps e-bay bidding works for them. Who knows, we are all free to choose and allocate value as we see fit, usually by comparing things relative to like things. Hence the comparing an Old Hickory to a knife made just like an Old Hickory except the handle. I'll try another way though. 1] Is an Old Hickory 2] Is a 1:1 replica of an Old Hickory exact in every way and it took a guy a day in a shed to build it. 3] Is another exact replica of an Old Hickory but it took the guy a month to make it. To me they are all worth the same and I can find no reason why they shouldn't be. The bloke that spent a month in the shed might not think that but I do, because I have nothing invested in any of them that makes one different from the others. Shed bloke would have to sell me something other than the knife for me to find his different. And I can't think of a property of his replica that he could do that with. What would it be?
 
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True, Shotgun.... though, I was simply refering to "one of a kind" as a selling feature for Koyote. Guys like Koster and Laconico can nail a design so accurately that they are better and more consistant than full production. That's a PLUS for them, for sure.

Rick
 
I think for the nature of this board it is almost all art. If you look at people that literally use knives for a living, commercial fishermen, butchers and the like, almost all use bare bones functional knives. I think more than most on this board I almost purely think of knives as tools and have a real hard time paying the big bucks for the knives that in my mind are functional art. I will say that in the couple of years I have been around this forum I have a better understanding why people enjoy collecting and using a lot of these knives, who knows, I might eventually order up a custom knife. :p

As far as the OPs idea of a forum where makers compete for customer's business. I think it would work for the beginners, both makers and customers, but the true artists will always have connoisseurs of their work seeking them out and will always have backlogs. Chris
 
BT-II...
I apologize.... or at least think I do... lol. I was under the belief that you didn't see the value in ANY custom/artistic/handmade goods. I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that what one guy is willing to pay, another would laugh at. I definately side with you on market value for any given item rules. That's why I can't and won't attempt to compete with Cold Steel and the like... I would be swept away.

You are only as valuable as what the consumer deems you to be.


Is this closer to your stance?



Rick
 
baldtaco-II said:
In sum, I only have the interests of the consumer in mind when it comes to the money.
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At the risk of sounding like a crazy hippe this is one of the problems with the global economy right now. We have lost respect and care about the people who toil to create goods and services. This has driven down the costs to some consumers but has also had crazy repercussion across the globe that we are still waiting to feel.

In the end though the market will drive the price. Im happy to pay quite a bit of money to custom craftsman for their skills, advice, and knowledge. I have the means to do so. I also feel like I am respected enough in my own profession that I am sought out and well rewarded for my perspective and talents. That probably contributes to see others with knowledge and skill do well, as well as my desire to help give folks a leg up when I feel like they deserve it.

I think and would certainly hope that artisans dont have to stoop to cut throat competition against new makers or production companies just because everyone is getting too damn cheap to respect their work properly.

I consider owning a great tool a privilege. Like your camera and photography analogy. I may sell my photos for pennies, but the Hasselblad still cost an arm and a leg. Obviously someone saw enough value in the camera that they were willing to buy it. They must get sheer joy using it, so much that they dont care about selling their pictures anymore. Or maybe they know they can take one good picture a year and live comfortably just taking pictures of what they want and let everyone else enjoy the images it captures.

Thats kind of what its like for me getting to use some of these hand crafted tools. Not that it can complete the task, but how it feels, looks, nuances in performance etc. But that requires me to care about more than just my own money.
 
Very simply, we are not going to buy into a sales program in a discussion forum. :)

What you might do here is discuss what kind of knife you (all) might like, working out design and materials and a reasonable price. You can then take that to Shop Talk and ask who would be interested in taking on the job.

But that's no different from what many people do, go to Shop Talk and ask who can make them their knife.
 
Fortunately our economy is such that there will always be customers for those who make products better than everyone else.
I was delivering cars and losing my shirt because most people weren't buying cars in 2008. One customer in Houston though had an unbelievable selection of very high end cars. He had constant business because as he said wealthy people will always buy what they want no matter the economy.
If you make it better than everyone else there will be someone to buy it.
 
August West said:
As far as the OPs idea of a forum where makers compete for customer's business. I think it would work for the beginners, both makers and customers, but the true artists will always have connoisseurs of their work seeking them out and will always have backlogs. Chris
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100% agree. the makers i have got over the last few years has taken a couple of years of waiting with the lists getting larger all the time. many makers have such a backlog they stop taking orders all together. this is where dealers can help
 
Magnussen said:
BT-II...
I apologize.... or at least think I do... lol. I was under the belief that you didn't see the value in ANY custom/artistic/handmade goods. I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that what one guy is willing to pay, another would laugh at. I definately side with you on market value for any given item rules. That's why I can't and won't attempt to compete with Cold Steel and the like... I would be swept away.

You are only as valuable as what the consumer deems you to be.


Is this closer to your stance?



Rick
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We're good Rick. Yeah, much closer.

For what it is worth I take a fair amount of interest in the handmade art side of knives, I just don't talk it here 'cos for me it has nothing to do with WSS. Here tools are tools and only have value as tools, elsewhere other aspects have virtue too. I thought your Bownana was a great looking beast ;-). The design Ray Laconico came up with in conjunction with Lambertiana's son is one of the nicest bits of handmade design I've seen in a long time. And the superstitions of the handmade knife are also kinda interesting too – eg. Lavers and Knapp, Walrus Ivory and so on, Archives of natural history 35 (2): 306–318. 2008 The Society for the History of Natural History...blah blah

Anyways, I got 03.57 now so enough from me.
 
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