Good Philmont blade

Hit your buddy's foot and you lose? So the person who 'wins' has a knife stuck in their foot?!? Screw that!

No wonder their knives were taken away...

I think the rules of that game are that you stick the knife near your buddy's foot and he has to move his feet wider apart to the place that the knife stuck in the ground. After several rounds of this, eventually he can't stand any longer and then he loses. My Dad taught me that game when I was a little kid, but we used a butter knife. I don't think I'll be teaching my kids.

BTW, a scout could do most of that problem stuff with a lockback.
 
Thanks for the clarification. That sounds better than what I was imagining. Still...
 
Of course, they wouldn't have ANY knife injuries if the boys just stayed inside, drank sodas, watched TV and played video games. They'd be PERFECTLY safe then. At least until they died of heart disease and diabetes at age 45.

Before this rant gets into full swing, let me disclose that I was THE camp medic for one of the largest BSA camps in the United States. I saw and treated, or helped treat, everything from a drug overdose to broken bones to unexplained unconsciousness to poison ivy and mosquito bites to dirt-bike-engendered road rash to head/neck injuries to arrow and airgun wounds to horse-throw injuries--and, yes, plenty of cuts and burns. (I was also an Eagle Scout, and was one of the ones who taught the younger Scouts wilderness survival stuff, after I got bitten hard by that bug early in my Scouting career.)

You want to ban what causes injuries? Ban rope. Yes, that's right: rope. You see, the one most dangerous thing we ever encountered at that camp--and we did it every week--was rope swings. Someone throws a rope over a branch and ties it off; kids swing on it; kids fall off; kids break bones; I run kids in to the nearest hospital to treat the fracture. By the end of the summer I could truthfully tell incoming groups that EVERY SINGLE TIME somebody hung a rope swing, I ended up running a kid in to the hospital. Nobody believed me, of course--but that's why there was a problem, because they're deceptively dangerous.

Want to ban what actually kills people? Ban axes--or, better, tree-cutting equipment in general. I had no fatalities on my watch--which, with a camp of 500 teenagers with knives, guns, arrows, axes, horses, fire, and whatever illegal drugs they've managed to bring with them, is not a given. But the year after I left a kid was chopping a dead tree, a high branch broke off and fell several yards, and penetrated his skull.

But do you know what? I DON'T advocate taking ropes away from Scouts. Or knives. Or axes. Or saws. Or fire. Because, do you know what? That's what Scouting is about. Life is dangerous. You aren't going to get out of it alive. Scouting is basically just homeschooling in basic life skills. These involve danger. It is the LEARNING about HOW TO DEAL WITH sharp edges, hot fires, wild animals, trackless wildernesses, large bodies of water, real guns, and the like that equips boys to deal with them. (Hell, throw "young women" into that list of hazards--though I can't credit Boy Scouts with teaching much in that particular area. ;) ) You know what? You're going to get hurt. And you're going to end up okay. Even if you flipping DIE, God's got that angle covered, too.

Of all the organizations that stand to lose by losing sight of this, Boy Scouts is probably at greatest risk. Because if Boy Scouts loses this, it loses its soul.

I saw a little of this when I was in Boy Scouts. My first High Adventure trek was at the Whiting Scout Ranch--now closed--in northern Arizona. Like Philmont, it involved a week-plus hike between various stations, where we rappelled down into the Little Colorado River gorge, started fires with flint and steel, molded and shot our own black powder bullets--that kind of stuff. When I went to Philmont a year or so later, we did similar stuff--but there was one pervasive, noticeable difference. Philmont was so heavily-traveled that there were far, far more rules--far more "stick to the trail". At Whiting, the task was to get from Point A to Point B--and it was up to you to figure out how to do it. You had a topo map; you had a compass; magnetic north's over there; declination's 12 degrees; figure it out. You know, we got there. Sometimes took us a few extra hours, and half a dozen extra miles, but we by golly DID IT. Philmont, by contrast, was a bit of a disappointment in this respect. Travel was mostly on roads that a motor vehicle could negotiate just fine. Now, Philmont was still great--and I hope to high Heaven that there's still a Philmont worth the drive when my kids get to that age. (And it's coming up--my oldest son just turned eight the day before yesterday, and finished his Wolf Cub Scout requirements last night.) But--it was a step down. The elevation was "high"--but the "adventure" part was a noticeable few notches down.

Yes, yes, YES, I know what you're thinking, and I'll say it for you: there are so many Scouts crawling all over Philmont that they have to turn it into a freaking Howard Johnson's just to keep them from trampling every plant, surrounding every campsite with half-buried human waste, and gunning each other down with AK-47s borrowed from their street gangs back home. Yes, I'll concede that some regulation is necessary. Remember, I'm the old anti-rope-swing Nazi. But--but you don't have to LIKE it. You don't have to pave every trail, put a metal ring around every fire (or, better yet, ban the fires altogether and have the kids eat gorp or MREs or intravenous Ringer's lactate or whatever the heck they're supposed to subsist on in the postmodern age.)

At the very least, Scouting's leadership needs to look right in the eye the fact that such overregulation and hypersensitivity to the dangers can--and WILL, IF NOT RECOGNIZED AS A PROBLEM AND ADDRESSED AS THE PROBLEM IT IS, cause Boy Scouts to become too pale of an imitation of what it once was, to attract enough participation to make it work keeping.

I see the same thing going on in other areas of life. When I was in high school (this was in the '80s, folks--not the 1880s, either--so not TOO long ago), my high school had a trap and skeet club. We weren't allowed to carry our 12-gauges into the classrooms, but we WERE encouraged to bring them to school. We just left them in the principal's office and picked them up at the end of the day, after classes were over. "Hi, Rose!" "Hi, J.D.!" "Here's my gun!" "Thanks, J.D.--see you after school; have a great day!" After school, we'd lie around on the front lawn with our guns, waiting for our moms to pick us up. This was right, smack-dab on the main street of one of the biggest cities in the U.S. Nowadays, there's this federal gun-free-school-zones act that's supposed to criminalize the guy who drives down any road within hundreds of feet of a school with an unloaded gun in his trunk, I gather. And you're telling me we're safer? Ever hear of Columbine High School? Virginia Tech? The rules aren't helping, people! The national parks, the city parks are getting closed down to anything but on-road travel and designated-campsite camping. What the heck reason is there to have a park anymore? They're banning hunting in wide swaths of the West because the anti-gun folks joined forces with the anti-hunting "environmentalists" and claim that lead bullets left in dead animals are poisoning a few dozen California condors. I mean, I'm as keen on endangered species protection as the next (sane) guy--but if that's where society is headed, I may want to reconsider my stance against cramming every condor out there with stuffing and deep-frying it. Hell, if every square inch of the outdoors is a "no trespassing" zone, we won't even get to SEE the dang birds anyway!

You know those science-fiction stories you used to read about everybody living in these bubble-domed cities, wearing uniform jumpsuits, and being afraid of going outside? You thought that people would just gravitate to that because they were too timid to step outdoors? No--I'll tell you how that's going to happen: the U.S. Department of the Interior is going to declare that every square foot of land outside city limits is a no-trespassing zone for everybody except federal forest rangers, and the only people out there except federal law enforcement agents are going to be rabid marijuana growers and freakish lunatics who've not yet been rounded up into the asylums.

I always used to think that this song--I first heard the Tesla version, but I gather that theirs was a cover of a 1970 version by Five Man Electrical Band--was over-the-top, anti-establishment nonsense. I am no longer so sure:

SIGNS

Sign, Sign everywhere a sign;
Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind.
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

And the sign said "long haired freaky people need not apply."
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why.
He said, "You look like a fine upstanding young man; I think you'll do."
So I took off my hat; I said, "Imagine that, huh, me working for you!"
Woah!

Sign, Sign, everywhere a sign;
Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind;
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

And the sign said anybody caught trespassing would be shot on sight.
So I jumped the fence and yelled at the house, "Hey! what gives you the right
To put up a fence to keep me out or to keep Mother Nature in?
If God was here, He'd tell you to your face, Man you're some kinda sinner!"

Sign, Sign, everywhere a sign;
Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind;
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

"Now, hey you Mister! Can't you read? You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat!
You can't even watch, no you can't eat, you ain't supposed to be here!"
Sign said you got to have a membership card to get inside. Uh!

And the sign said, "Everybody welcome: come in, kneel down and pray."
But when they passed around the plate at the end of it all,
I didn't have a penny to pay. So I got me a pen and a paper and I made up my own little sign:
I said, "Thank you, Lord, for thinking about me, I'm alive and doing fine."

Sign, Sign, everywhere a sign;
Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind;
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?

Sign, Sign, everywhere a sign;
Blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind;
Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?





Well, there you go. Rant over. Back to my white-collar job.
 
A friend had two kids in the scouts two years ago and he was one of the adults on the Philmont trek. They had a great time but I was surprised who closely the scouts now follow the Sierra Club type rules for carrying virtually everything out with you.

When did the scouts start doing this?

Thanks,
Rich
 
I think when I went I brought a gerber EZout, leatherman wave, and a benchmade. I think we used the leatherman once to fix a stove and th rest of the time the cutting chores were minimal. I would suggest the delica as well.
 
My best advice would spend your resources on very comfortable boots, great socks, a sweet hat, and a comfortable backpack. And save plenty of money to buy trinkets when you are playing tourist. And it is the adventure of a life time.

+1

I was surprised who closely the scouts now follow the Sierra Club type rules for carrying virtually everything out with you.

When did the scouts start doing this?

I started in Boy Scouts in 10 years ago and Cub Scouts 15 and they were doing it then. It was always about conservation.


The Outdoor Code

"As an American I will do my best to be...
clean in my outdoor manor
careful with fire,
considerate in the outdoors
and conservation minded."

I think that's how it goes...

-K
 
I was a scout in the '50s and '60s. We were taught to be careful not to trash the great outdoors too, but we burried our poop.
We also made lilttle trenches around out tents to make the water run around out tents.

When did they start this practice at Philmont?
 
Return of the J.D. - no holdin back now, ok?

:D



Seriously...you should consider starting a petition with your rant above....there are lots of folks who would sign it...in and out of scouting. ;)



I'm pretty sure you don't carry your poop out with you at Philmont....:barf:

they have latrines there...they just ask that you dispose of waste i the appropriate places.
 
I'm pretty sure you don't carry your poop out with you at Philmont....

Mines under a tree out there somewhere... if you can avoid it don't ever put yourself in a situation where you have to dig a 2x2x2 hole with a hand shovel in a thunder storm...

We carried our trash until we hit a staffed camp (which was almost every day) and then deposited it there. The staff would then transport it all out.

-K
 
J. D., I agree with you 100% about our society becoming so "over protective" of young people, today, with more and more onerous, restrictive regulatons. Most kids today are so soft they seem like overstuffed marshmellows who are afraid of their shadows.

I attended Philmont Scout Ranch in 1950. I assure you, there were not many regulations in effect then! Nor were there very many Scouts there at any one time, either. Had a great time and "roughed it" almost everyday.

As for knives, almost every Scout had one, some regular Boy Scout Camillus folders (which I had), or a four inch Marbles type fixed blade. Can't remember any knife accidents, and the main accidents were skinnned knees from slipping on the rough trails and smacking a knee on the rocks, or twisting an ankle.

Some Scouts carried the Plumb Boy Scout hatchets, but not many, as they were pretty heavy for the hiking we did every day.

At that time we travelled on rough trails, and the dirt roads were few and far between. We also tied our own trout flies, used a long stick and string to fish the creeks, and caught trout for the evening meals, several times.

I distinctly remember the several wranglers of the mule pack trains delivering supplies to the remote campsites carrying saddle scabbards on their horses, with Winchester .30-30 rifles inside. I don't recall any handguns with the wranglers, but there might have been one or two in saddle bags. (??)

Guess all that has changed now. Oh well......

L.W. (Eagle Scout.)
 
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I don't recall any handguns with the wranglers, but there might have been one or two in saddle bags. (??)

Guess all that has changed now. Oh well......

Saw a few that looked to have six guns under their riding coats... didn't get a close look though.

-K
 
Back in 79 when I was a scout, we dug a hole for a latrine and later covered it over, but other than that were expected to leave no trace including scattering leaves and pine needles back over the bare areas of the campsite. It was almost like hiding a crime scene. But I can see the value especially in a park area where others might follow and they would rather see nature than a bunch of candy wrappers, mud and fire rings. A gang of boys would leave a real mess behind if left to their own devices.
 
I'm pretty sure you don't carry your poop out with you at Philmont....:barf:

Hmm--if you disobeyed that rule, what would happen? ;) Picture of a pack of Scouts, backpacks shouldered, trudging down the trail--suddenly, from behind them, comes this uniformed bureaucrat in a Jeep: "Hey, you! You forgot this back at Campsite 4XQ-2,546! It was buried 100 yards outside of the campsite perimeter, 6 inches down! We know it was you, because of the RFIDs we baked into your camp biscuits!"
 
Lurker = Yes, I agree. The BSA is definitely pro-knife. For my crew...the boys can carry whatever they want...as long as I get to see it first. :D


CaptInsano - yes a fixed blade can't fold up on you....but a folded blade cannot fall out of its sheath and end up going through part of your body. :eek:

Their mentality = a cut finger is much better than a stab wound

Like I said...I can see things their way....but don't agree 100% with it.


Properly trained scouts with good knives and good sheaths = safer/better than an SAK.


another thing to consider:

Today's parents are also less forgiving of their sons getting accidentally cut while out scouting.



Dan

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of ways to rationalize it. I'm just saying that none of the reasoning really holds any water under scrutiny. :cool:
 
Absolutely!

Carrying more stuff than necessary does not make someone "more" prepared. You either have a suitable pocketknife or you don't.

Really? I carry stuff that isn't usually necessary all the time. First Aid Kit, flashlight, bandanna, lighter, cell phone. Hey, you don't have a spare tire in your car by any chance, do you?
 
On my trek to Philmont, for the majority of the duration of the trip I was actually in the area known as the Valle Vidal (actually called the Carson National Forest, one of the most pristine national forests left in the country...which might not be saying much, but regardless...) in the North Country. My trek was 619G6, or the 6th crew leaving on the 19th of June, 2006.

As my experience has been extremely recent and is fresh in my mind, I will try to provide some information and additional advice about the trek and Scouting regulations concerning conservation in general.

1. Philmont has no ban on fixed blades. On several occassions, our ranger, named Logan, asked to borrow my fellow crew member's Ek seven-inch fixed blade to help with miscellaneous camp chores. There are no strict regulations about the size or type of knives out at Philmont, but they do advise you that anything cumbersome like a pack ax or heavy fixed blade is unnecessary and will weigh you down. They do NOT prohibit you from carrying such items.

2. Scouting has been very conservation-minded, and has become increasingly so as of late. To quote the Outdoor Code, found on page 9 of the official handbook:

As an American, I will do my best to
Be clean in my outdoor manners,
Be careful with fire,
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation-minded.

There are several badges available for the Leave No Trace campaign and it is actively practiced at the Philmont Scout Ranch and other scouting facilities like Camp Berry in central Ohio. The Leave No Trace Awareness Award and the World Conservation Award outline and evince the Scouting shift towards these practices and are found on page 411 of the new handbook.

When I attended Philmont, we did not have to pack out our excrement. There are outhouse facilities on the Scout Ranch itself; in the Valle Vidal (Carson National Forest), where there are no ground fires permitted, no fixed structures allowed (even for staff), and no trash recepticles, trash and foodstuff wrappers must be packed out, but human waste is buried in typical "catholes" buried at least two feet deep (along with biodegradable, unscented toilet paper, which is provided) and recovered with whatever vegetation was displaced. On the ranch itself there are outhouses, and it is required to go approximately 100 yards from the campsite to urinate.

3. In regards to my somewhat confusing earlier post, where I said I "didn't have much use [for my Military at Philmont]" but recommended it as "an excellent Philmont blade," I was referring to the fact that it was not used very much, but excelled at what it was indeed used for. For any applicable outdoor or Scouting task, the Military would make an excellent knife. I was referring to the Scouting motto "Be prepared" in that the Military could serve in the facilities of many chores and emergencies, but I did not (thank goodness) need to use it in that way. If you don't use it much at Philmont, you'll need a good knife for the rest of your Scouting career and life.

4. PHILMONT ADVICE IN GENERAL:
a. Get good boots! I got Danner's Mountain Light II, relaced them with multi-colored parachute cord so I could feel cool. :D They were excellent, and you use these more than anything!
b. Get good socks! The traditional liner sock/outer sock method is not necessary, I believe, as long as your purchase good wool socks. I recommend SmartWool, the highest cushion you can get. They're about $20/pair, and three pairs will suffice.
c. A good fleece is key! Check out Campmor's sale section, they sometimes have good deals on Marmot, North Face, etc. The North Face Denali is excellent and is what I used.
d. Get a comfortable pack. Make sure you have plenty of options to divide your gear and make it adaptable to what crew gear you must carry. Remember, you will have to take your part of the team's gear, and not just your own, so have room! 4,800+ inches, I recommend an INTERNAL frame.
e. Nalgene water bottles rock. They will show your bottles that have been attacked by bears and fireworks and have survived. Believe me, I've tried to kill the things and have failed miserably.
f. Get a belt with a small bucket for your cargo shorts, otherwise this will cause chafing with the buckle from your pack and make your day uncomfortable.
g. A CamelBak will make your day. Set it outside in the night, filled with a cool load of water, then place it in your pack. It will, in my experience, stay cold all day. 100 oz. of cold water per day in a place like Philmont will be heaven-sent, especially when you're used to drinking 90-degree mix-in lemonade from Nalgenes.
h. Get Tabasco. Enough said, right?
i. Get a good flashlight. It can seem like your best friend in the middle of the night. I spotted a mountain lion at Rich Cabins in the north country on a ridge seventy-five feet up with my SureFire E2L. I had to report it, and had to go back to the campsite in the dark---with a lion lurking about. The buddy system is great, and so is a powerful, compact flashlight.
j. I found athletic shorts to be more comfortable than khaki-type cargo shorts. It may be a personal preference, but they ventillated much better.
k. Don't waste cash on sunglasses. They issue you cheap, polarized shades that you won't be said to lose or cry if they get broke unlike your Ray Bans or Oakleys.
l. Get a good, solid walking stick. This can double as a self-defense tool against mountain lions. They are impervious, according to the staff, against knives because they are used to stab wounds from fighting with each other. They are not used to dealing with blunt force, etc. But essentially, the walking sticks are great for taking the load off your back and knees.
m. If someone has a GPS, take it. It might be a pound of extra weight, but in those crucial moments when you're second-guessing your own orienteering or a douchebag Scoutmaster is questioning it, having the ability to use the assistance of a satellite is invaluable. It does not beat natural skills in any way, but it saves a lot of walking and you might as well have a modern convenience as an insurance policy!
o. Pack your stuff (especially sleeping bag, warm layers) in waterproof bags. Common sense.
p. Don't skimp on rain gear, especially if your track is in the north country. The storms can follow the ridge lines and be quite bad! Get something like a Marmot top (about $100) and less-expensive bottoms like those from Columbia River.

I probably have more little tidbits, but they elude me for the moment.

Hope I helped and clarified things a bit!

God bless you, America, and our men and women overseas!

KATN,

Wade
619G6
 
Thanks for all your help. I think will go with my minigrip, i would go with a SAK but seeing as the crew is from my troop(we have quite a large troop, we just hit fifty members) i cant bring a non-locking knife still might get a leatherman for the pliers and give it to someone else though. Steelscout thanks for the tips, what would you recomend for camp shoes? Everybody says crocs but seeing as they are butt uglyn i am looking for something else.
 
"2. Scouting has been very conservation-minded, and has become increasingly so as of late. To quote the Outdoor Code, found on page 9 of the official handbook:"

I hope someone in scouting doesn't try to turn the Boy Scouts into the Green Party Rangers.
 
Look at anything in the Byrd line from Spyderco. They would all be great values and just what you are looking for in a knife.
 
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