Good reason to always carry a kit in the woods

[Cpl Punishment]

Funny thing is (ok, really not funny) is these are the people who balk and laugh at guys like us that don't go anywhere without a kit. I mean, these people could fit quite a kit in those trendy little packs that sit between a woman's shoulder blades. If the weather really goes to extremes, a little more is required, but nothing exorbitant.

Never ceases to amaze me. In this part of the country you don't have to get vey far away from civilization for cell phones to stop working.

Heck, I've had to drive a couple miles from my house to get cell coverage! Why people don't realize that there's no where near 100% coverage for cell phones is beyond me.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Injury doesn't even always prevent self-rescue.

I had been wandering around an isolated wooded area, and was about as far back from the roads as I could be when my foot snapped off. My prosthetic foot. I crawled out to the road, to the rental/propane company, where a couple of guys helped me over the fence and one of them drove me home.

Stay calm, think about where you are and what you need, and set out in the right direction.

Trouble is, they don't always know the right direction -- though they think they do. Followed one guy six days (Well, actually, the tracker followed him and the rest of us followed the tracker.) He thought he was heading towards a highway when actually walking at a 90 degree angle to it. (No map. No compass. No knowledge or experience.) He was calm, however, if clueless. He made us tea on his Svea 123 before we started down towards that highway.

 

[flashlife]

My wife, from Arizona, has lots of tales of tourists taking a 'walk in the desert'.

Their shrivled remains are usually found a week or so later.
They're usually found to have gone out with nothing but what was in their pockets in NYC or LA.
No water, no compass, no light, no knife, no whistle...their cellphone batteries are all used up, probably from trying to 'get a signal'.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'm glad the original folks got out.

Depending on how comfortable I was in knowing my directions and where the trail head was direction-wise, I probably would have built a fire and spent the night myself. But, if you're off the main trail and you don't have any idea which way to go, getting rescued is about the only hope short of wandering around for a while until you get oriented.

I have been known to go on hikes without a flashlight. But normally I carry a small flashlight, matches, compass and so forth just in case. You just never know what might happen... medical conditions are the worst. Sometimes you can't save yourself.

I still think there should be a fee to get rescued when you're in the mountains.

You always need to prepare for at least one colder temperature range when hiking. Even a long sleeve shirt feels pretty good if you have to spend the night around a fire in the summer.

 

[hollowdweller]

MANY areas where I have hiked in PA have no cellphone service. If you depended on that technology . . . . .

Most of the places I hike in the Monongahela National Forest you can't get cell phone service. Considering how much my wifes cell phone goes off at home with stuff from work we always considered it a good thing:thumbup:

 

[macgregor22]

I don't even bring my cell phone with me in the woods.
I can read my txt msg's when I gat back home.

 

[MrCoffee]

Most of the places I hike in the Monongahela National Forest you can't get cell phone service. Considering how much my wifes cell phone goes off at home with stuff from work we always considered it a good thing:thumbup:

Yeah my cell tends to ring from my boss more then anyone else. I always have it with me, but more then half the time it is next to useless in NH/VT.
Not something I rely on, ever, but there in case of a medical emergency with my youngest boy (who is special needs).

I have bumped into more then one person out hiking in the Green or White Mountains that has sheepishly asked if I knew how they could get back to the trailhead. I am always happy to point them in the right direction.

 

[stitchawl]

Glad to see I wasnt the only one that believes that people should carry the correct gear anytime they venture out. I have always believed it is my responsibility to "self rescue" or at least have the proper gear to sit tight until I can be rescued (I.E. Injury prevents self rescue). Not even to mention the skills.

Stitchawl I didnt realize you were local to me, NH.

MrCoffee, I'm no longer in that area. But for many years the Whites, Greens, Adirondacks, were my playgrounds. According to my maps, I've walked just about every trail in the Pemmi, and the Franconia and Presidential Ranges. And until GPS came along, got turned around once or twice in all of them!

(End-to-End Appalachian Trail , Long Trail, John Muir Trail, and sections of the Pacific Crest Trail, but that was back in my younger days. These days I walk end-to-end to the 7-Eleven!)

Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

[SNIP]
I still think there should be a fee to get rescued when you're in the mountains.
[SNIP]

Unless I'm mistaken, people in many parts of Europe ARE charged if SAR has to get them out of the Alps, Dolomites, etc., especially if there is a chopper involved. If memory serves me, they are not only charged for the gas for the helicopter, but also the salaries lost by the the rescuers having to leave their regular jobs!! I think this is a GREAT idea! (In some areas SAR is a paid professional job [such as Austria's National Ski Patrol,] and I KNOW that they charge for their services.)

Stitchawl

 

[James 61]

Unless I'm mistaken, people in many parts of Europe ARE charged if SAR has to get them out of the Alps, Dolomites, etc., especially if there is a chopper involved. If memory serves me, they are not only charged for the gas for the helicopter, but also the salaries lost by the the rescuers having to leave their regular jobs!! I think this is a GREAT idea! (In some areas SAR is a paid professional job [such as Austria's National Ski Patrol,] and I KNOW that they charge for their services.)

Stitchawl

Boy there is a subject that could be hotly debated.

Being a SAR volunteer even I am of two opinions about that. Yes it would be nice to be reimbersed for the our teams costs ie fuel, maintanance etc... and it would be even better for the personnel who lost wages to be compinsated. I'm lucky that the company I work for has a HR policy regard volunteer firefighters and EMS personnel and still payes our wages up to a full shift.

My concern however is that if there was a fee/fine is that people in need would be very reluctant to take advantage of our services. There was a recent search for an mentally challanged child that got seperated from his parents. If the parents knew they were going to be charged would they have been as likely to call for help (via the sheriff) or tried to find him on thier own and either gotten lost/injured themselves and/or never found thier child.

I think a better idea would be for legislation to be passed at the state or federal level or both providing funding for Search and Rescue. While it would be great to see paid full time SAR teams become a reality what most teams need is funding for equipment and training. Our team alone needs to replace a very worn out 1983 suburban. With the FCC mandated switch to Narrow Band FM taking effect in a few years almost every team out there will need new radios.
The team I belong to is hurting bad right now. Most teams are nonprofit organizations and are funded with donations or grants. Our team bylaws actually prohibit us from charging for our services, be it a search, first aid booth at a community event, or even community education classes. We looked into Homeland Security grants but the hoops we had to jump through were duanting and now that money is starting to dry up. Not to mention the Homeland Security grants were a long shot for us as they were directed at law enforcement agencies mainly. In our area one of the grant foundations that has been around for at least 20 years actually ran out of money and shutdown. Even without the current economic situation the future does not look good as donations are done across the nation to all nonprofits. Hopefully we can weather the bad times and survive. We aren't the only ones struggling either.

 

[stitchawl]

Boy there is a subject that could be hotly debated.

Being a SAR volunteer even I am of two opinions about that. Yes it would be nice to be reimbersed for the our teams costs ie fuel, maintanance etc... and it would be even better for the personnel who lost wages to be compinsated. I'm lucky that the company I work for has a HR policy regard volunteer firefighters and EMS personnel and still payes our wages up to a full shift.

My concern however is that if there was a fee/fine is that people in need would be very reluctant to take advantage of our services. There was a recent search for an mentally challanged child that got seperated from his parents. If the parents knew they were going to be charged would they have been as likely to call for help (via the sheriff) or tried to find him on thier own and either gotten lost/injured themselves and/or never found thier child.

I think a better idea would be for legislation to be passed at the state or federal level or both providing funding for Search and Rescue. While it would be great to see paid full time SAR teams become a reality what most teams need is funding for equipment and training. Our team alone needs to replace a very worn out 1983 suburban. With the FCC mandated switch to Narrow Band FM taking effect in a few years almost every team out there will need new radios.
The team I belong to is hurting bad right now. Most teams are nonprofit organizations and are funded with donations or grants. Our team bylaws actually prohibit us from charging for our services, be it a search, first aid booth at a community event, or even community education classes. We looked into Homeland Security grants but the hoops we had to jump through were duanting and now that money is starting to dry up. Not to mention the Homeland Security grants were a long shot for us as they were directed at law enforcement agencies mainly. In our area one of the grant foundations that has been around for at least 20 years actually ran out of money and shutdown. Even without the current economic situation the future does not look good as donations are done across the nation to all nonprofits. Hopefully we can weather the bad times and survive. We aren't the only ones struggling either.

James61 has raised some very good points in favor of not charging people for SAR. There will always be people who either won't want to spend the money or can't afford to. :thumbup:

Perhaps there needs to be some way to differentiate and work accordingly. However, there is no doubt about the fact that the SAR groups have expenses. Stupid people doing stupid things in the woods should, somehow... and please don't ask me how..., be made to help defray some of those expenses.

Paid SAR exists in many places. Probably there are some more problems created by this. On the other hand, perhaps there are many fewer problems because people stop to think before strolling off into unknown areas. Do we give a free ride to all to protect one or two? Good question of ethics... What is 'acceptable loss?' IS there such a concept when dealing with the public vs death in military action? I certainly don't have the answers.

Stitchawl

 

[Esav Benyamin]

What procedures are in place when police, fire, or ambulance services get called in -- at times, for frivolous purposes? We could get some idea from how they handle it. While police are paid, fire and ambulance are often volunteer.

I live in a fairly well-to-do surburban community in a densely populated part of a densely populated state. Our fire and First Aid are volunteer.

My apologies to the libertarians among us, but we do live in a complex society, where our lives do impact the lives of those around us. We have systems of taxation to support the common services we all depend on. I wonder that at least the material needs of volunteer life-saving organizations are not met from public funds.

 

[Midnight Scout]

I was hiking in Big Bend National Park a few years ago with my brother and we came upon the "extreme sport" crowd at the end of the trail where everyone had stopped to each lunch. These guys (and girls) seemed to sniff at us with our boots and small backpacks with our lunches and elementary survival gear (I'm a yuppie myself, but I am not a dumb yuppie). I looked at what they had: tank tops, shorts, sneakers, a small bottle of water each, a food bar and no hats. They took off before my brother and I started heading back, but I fully expected to have to help one of them back out with a twisted ankle or something. I wondered what they would have done without any sort of equipment to shelter themselves in any way or to tend to any wound. I wonder if they would have sniffed at our old fashioned equipment at that point?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Nothing goes wrong until everything goes wrong.

 

[James 61]

I don't have all the answers. As far as I know there are no full time paid SAR teams in the USA. The only possible exception would be the FEMA USAR teams. If anyone knows different please set me straight. I do know that the Director of Aviation at my states DOT is a state employee and he gets paid but he only deals with aviaton related searches. I also know that the Director for Emegency Managment in the county next to us is also a member of a SAR team so he gets paid when there is a mission. There may be a few other exceptions such as myself but we are individuals that are the exception.

Stichawl - could you share your sources for paid SAR? I would like to start doing some research and study other countries policies.

Esav - there have been cases where people have been fined. There is a story of a guy who got himself into a situation beyond his experience/capabilities and deployed a PLB. He was rescued but had to leave his gear behind. He went back to retrive his gear and got into trouble a second time and deployed his PLB again. He was fined after being rescued a second time. I'm sure there have been other cases.

 

[stitchawl]

As far as I know there are no full time paid SAR teams in the USA. The only possible exception would be the FEMA USAR teams.

I'm not gonna touch THAT one with a 10 ft. pole! :jerkit:

Stichawl - could you share your sources for paid SAR? I would like to start doing some research and study other countries policies.

Wish I could, James, but my info is all anecdotal. I remember seeing some ETV programs about paid groups, and my wife and I used to dive with an Austrian husband and wife team who were both on their county's paid SAR teams, and we used to discuss methodology while waiting out surface intervals. I remember that they intimated that the Italians also had some paid groups in the Dolomites but I don't remember them saying where... Obviously it would have to be in the northern region. Sorry I can't be of more assistance in this.

Esav - there have been cases where people have been fined. [SNIP]
He was fined after being rescued a second time. I'm sure there have been other cases.

THIS makes a lot of sense! Some areas that are 'protected' will not allow hikers in without the proper equipment or reasonable experience. I know that some scuba trip operators won't allow inexperienced divers to join them for certain risky (i.e. rough currents, overhead enviroments, etc.,) dive sites, but there is nothing to stop the divers from going by themselves. God usually sorts them out at the other end.

Stitchawl

 

[James 61]

Thanks Stitchawl. Unfortantly most of my info is the same. I'm not even sure about the USAR teams. I did do an extensive search of the internet for all the teams in the Pacific Northwest and California. I was not able to locate a single team that was not a non-profit volunteer outfit. I have not has a chance to investigate the rest of the country but I have a feeling my results will be the same.

As to the ten foot pole is that for FEMA or USAR? Not to go to far but FEMA does not seem to be a very popular gov agency. I don't know if the same applies to the USAR teams.

Slightly off topic. Are you in Europe or did you just live and travel there for a while?

 

[DrivebyTrucker]

I hear of rescued hikers getting fined all the time in CA. Strange but I have noticed a trend whenever I hear of these lost hikers. There usually not the young, extreme crowed. Although they do show up frequently for bad accidents that force a rescue. Rarely do I hear of a search for an old, experienced, man. Never even heard of a lost black hiker. Many of the reports I see on the news are Asian. Usually middle aged but sometimes they are young. I heard of young Mexicans getting lost in the mountains as well. One case where a group were lost and one of them decided he would take his chances and hiked out alone since he didn't want to pay a rescue fee (James your right people think about that), he made it out and alerted authorities to rescue his friends (who were charged a fee) I guess he was smart enough to keep walking down hill, wherever it may have led. He likely saw the bright lights of LA at some point and kept going downhill until he reached civilization. It's different in every state but it seems in CA it's usually a lost Kim, or Lee, or Lopez.

 

[stitchawl]

Thanks Stitchawl. Unfortantly most of my info is the same. I'm not even sure about the USAR teams. I did do an extensive search of the internet for all the teams in the Pacific Northwest and California. I was not able to locate a single team that was not a non-profit volunteer outfit. I have not has a chance to investigate the rest of the country but I have a feeling my results will be the same.

Try contacting The Explorer's Club in New York City, or 'Angeeda Kemonon' out of Philadelphia (not sure that group is still in existance... ) Might have some useful information for you. The Angeeda Kemonon ran many different expeditions during the late 60's and early 70's. I was peripherally involved in one of theirs, a para-alpine expedition to the Penny Ice Cap in '73 or '74. It was winter, and I can't remember which side of the New Year it was on!

As to the ten foot pole is that for FEMA or USAR? Not to go to far but FEMA does not seem to be a very popular gov agency. I don't know if the same applies to the USAR teams.

As I said before, I won't discuss FEMA
However I have nothing but the highest regard for ALL volunteer SAR teams, and believe I speak for most Americans in that respect. (If not, please accept my apologies.) In the late 60's I wanted to work for Sierra Madre Search and Rescue, which at the time was headed up by an insurance man named Minor Harkness (how the heck I can remember his name today when I can't remember what I had for dinner last night is beyond me...) but because of working commitments did not have the freedom of time.

Slightly off topic. Are you in Europe or did you just live and travel there for a while?

No, these days I live in Japan. I'm American, but I lived in Germany for a few years, (both as a child and later as an adult,) and several different locations in Asia. My wife and I travel extensively all over the Northern Hemisphere for both work and play (sometimes dropping below the Equator in the Western Pacific for dive vacations.)

Stitchawl

 

[The REAL Commander]

I used to teach a youth wilderness survival course at the planetarium in the late 70's, and the first rule I introduced was "be prepared to be unprepared". This means pack stuff according the worst scenario your mind can perceive, then prepare your mind to cope with what you have forgotten to pack. When checking students' packs, I always found the girls to have one key component that the boys did not. Perhaps it was inadvertent, and due to vanity, but the girls almost always packed a mirror. :thumbup: