Good reason to always carry a kit in the woods

[stitchawl]

I used to teach a youth wilderness survival course at the planetarium in the late 70's, and the first rule I introduced was "be prepared to be unprepared". This means pack stuff according the worst scenario your mind can perceive, then prepare your mind to cope with what you have forgotten to pack. When checking students' packs, I always found the girls to have one key component that the boys did not. Perhaps it was inadvertent, and due to vanity, but the girls almost always packed a mirror. :thumbup:

When I was guiding wilderness trips I often suggested to the women who were going into the woods for the first time to bring a small mirror, small hair bush, lipstick, etc. Being in an alien environment for the first time can be off-putting for city people, and having some of their 'comfort toys' enabled them to relax and enjoy it a lot more, especially at night time 'in the deep, dark woods with scary things all around...' And as you said, having that mirror, once they were shown how to use it to signal, was a great tool in an emergency.

Stitchawl

 

[gaj999]

I love this part! I may use that quite a lot with you permission!

I'm late to the party, but here's one I like:

Q: What's the difference between genius and stupidity?

A: Genius has limiits.

Gordon

 

[Thomas Linton]

Hmm. Sorta sounds like the famous observation of Big Al: "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." And Big Al knew his infinity.

 

[1_BIG_BUNKER]

Why don't you draw up an in house insurance policy for everyone coming into the park or where ever?

You could tell everyone that it is completely optional if they buy it or not, but if they don't, they will be paying for the entire rescue and let them know that a rescue will be around $25,000 or whatever, and explain why it costs this much to rescue them.

I was thinking maybe ask them to pay $3 or something and then rescue will be covered no matter what. Now if you have 100,000 people come through you area or park, and say 75% pay the insurance, you just made $225,000 to cover rescues.

You could even extend this to hunting license. Check a box if you want the insurance, and you pay for it like a duck stamp. People spend a lot of money hunting anyway, so another couple bucks won't make that big of a difference.

 

[James 61]

Try contacting The Explorer's Club in New York City, or 'Angeeda Kemonon' out of Philadelphia (not sure that group is still in existance... ) Might have some useful information for you. The Angeeda Kemonon ran many different expeditions during the late 60's and early 70's. I was peripherally involved in one of theirs, a para-alpine expedition to the Penny Ice Cap in '73 or '74. It was winter, and I can't remember which side of the New Year it was on!



As I said before, I won't discuss FEMA
However I have nothing but the highest regard for ALL volunteer SAR teams, and believe I speak for most Americans in that respect. (If not, please accept my apologies.) In the late 60's I wanted to work for Sierra Madre Search and Rescue, which at the time was headed up by an insurance man named Minor Harkness (how the heck I can remember his name today when I can't remember what I had for dinner last night is beyond me...) but because of working commitments did not have the freedom of time.



No, these days I live in Japan. I'm American, but I lived in Germany for a few years, (both as a child and later as an adult,) and several different locations in Asia. My wife and I travel extensively all over the Northern Hemisphere for both work and play (sometimes dropping below the Equator in the Western Pacific for dive vacations.)

Stitchawl

Thanks for the info about The Explorer's Club and 'Angeeda Kemonon'. I'll look into when I get a chance.

Sorry to bring up FEMA. Their not my favorite Gov agency either but I'll leave it at that.

I gathered that you had nothing against us volunteers, and thanks for the appreciation.

I was just curious as you mentioned Europe a few times. I did some work related traveling to the Middle East and Asia several years ago. Someday I would like to get over to Europe and back to Asia and this time go where I want and at my pace.

What do you know about SAR in Japan? It would be curious to hear what you know and caompare it to Europe and the US.

 

[James 61]

Why don't you draw up an in house insurance policy for everyone coming into the park or where ever?

You could tell everyone that it is completely optional if they buy it or not, but if they don't, they will be paying for the entire rescue and let them know that a rescue will be around $25,000 or whatever, and explain why it costs this much to rescue them.

I was thinking maybe ask them to pay $3 or something and then rescue will be covered no matter what. Now if you have 100,000 people come through you area or park, and say 75% pay the insurance, you just made $225,000 to cover rescues.

You could even extend this to hunting license. Check a box if you want the insurance, and you pay for it like a duck stamp. People spend a lot of money hunting anyway, so another couple bucks won't make that big of a difference.

This is a good idea. My only thought/concern is who controls that money and how does it get distributed? The more government agencies it gets filtered through the less of it that gets to the operators.
It's one thing to have money to pay for the fuel/food etc... required for a search and another to fund the teams so that they are available. From what I've seen the funding for large searches is not the problem. It's funding the teams so that they can buy equipment (ropes, radios vehicles etc...), provide the training, do upkeep on equipment, buildings, etc... that is the problem.
Also in our state we only get reimburesed for our fuel costs if we respond to an incident outside our county. So if our team responds to an in county search of a duration of less than 24 hrs we do not get reimbursed for any of our expenses. Our team is based in a fairly populous county which contains the four or fifth largest city in the state. If we are hurting this bad imagine how bad it is for teams in sparesly poputated counties that have popular recreational areas within thier boundries. On a side note: I know of a situation in a neighboring county (with a high volume of calls) were the Emergancy Management position (to include SAR related incidents) is on the choping block as the funding is likely to dry up. If you ask me this should not be allowed to happen.
Without a reliable and secure source of funding there is a very good chance that teams across teh nation will have to cut back operations or suspend them entirely. If that happens the consequences for people who need our services could prove to be deadly. After some of the more high profile incidents that have happened in this region (James Kim, the three climbers on Mt Hood Dec 2007? to name a few) and others (none come to mind) I'm amazed that nothing has been done to recitfy the situation.

Sorry to get on a soap box but I have a passion for this subject.
To any of the other SAR guys/gals out there. Jump in and share, comment, etc... I don't want to be the only one talking here.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Without a reliable and secure source of funding there is a very good chance that teams across teh nation will have to cut back operations or suspend them entirely. If that happens the consequences for people who need our services could prove to be deadly. After some of the more high profile incidents that have happened in this region (James Kim, the three climbers on Mt Hood Dec 2007? to name a few) and others (none come to mind) I'm amazed that nothing has been done to recitfy the situation.

Can you imagine people heading out unprepared who get stuck and call in expecting someone is still there to answer the call?

 

[James 61]

Can you imagine people heading out unprepared who get stuck and call in expecting someone is still there to answer the call?

Yeah that would be suck. (Can I say that word?) I very much hope I'm wrong and I would be ok with that. Unfortantly the SAR community is very small and we are a small voice in the political scene. I know NASAR exsists (we mainly use their manuals and standads for training) but I'm not sure how much effect they are having on the politicians. I think what it will take is members of the outdoors community contacting thier state and federal elected officials and demanding change.

We are currently having some issues regarding callouts and the way our local sheriffs dept is handling SAR in our county. Unfortanly it is extremely political and currently our fear is that it will take a bungled search, a fatality and lots of bad publicity to force a change. I really hope that we are wrong. I'm not really sure that I want to get into much detail as I'm trying stay professional and not get into the politics of the whole thing. I'm sure I can go into sufficent detail without breaching any professional ethics that might apply (if any) but I would rather not in such a public forum.

 

[stitchawl]

[SNIP]
What do you know about SAR in Japan? It would be curious to hear what you know and caompare it to Europe and the US.

OK... here is what I 'gather' from asking one of my nephews-in-law, my wife, and at the Police Koban (neighborhood police box.) My language skills are not really up to the task of accurate research here...
Let's hope Fujita-san is reading this thread! He can correct me if I made some mistakes.

My nephew-in-law and his brother are both fire fighters here.
According to him, all fire-fighters are very seriously trained in SAR and EMT response, for both in cities and in wilderness areas. When a helicopter is needed for an evac, most often the Self Defense Force is called in although in certain parts of Japan (such as the Japan Alps, mountainous Nagano prefecture, and in parts of Hokkaido,) there are local helicopters available to the Fire Department. The Japan Alps region also has volunteer groups but these are more search and first aid rather than rescue. When the injured or lost are found, the pros get called in to do the evac.

It was the Self Defense Force that originally handled SAR for the Great Hanshin Earthquake, or as it's known outside of Japan, the Kobe Earthquake, of 1995 (along with the Yakuza...) until foreign volunteers groups could be allowed in to help.
I was in Osaka when that struck,
about 20 miles from the epicenter. Most of our windows broke, and everything that wasn't tied down was knocked over, but our house stayed up with just minor cracking in the walls. The Self Defense Force did an outstanding job for that one! :thumbup:

Stitchawl

 

[James 61]

Thanks for the info. I is nice to have something to compare the way we do things here. Glad you made it through that earthquake ok.

 

[stitchawl]

Thanks for the info. I is nice to have something to compare the way we do things here. Glad you made it through that earthquake ok.

Thanks. They seem to follow me around... :grumpy:
I lived through two of the big ones in California, and the big one here. I REALLY don't like them. I don't know of any other situation where I feel so completely helpless as when the building is swaying back and forth! If we have the time, we try to hunker down next to the fridge, between it and the kitchen counter. Statistics show that most survivors are found in A-shaped spaces formed by large furniture, appliances, or building structure. We do keep a bug-out bag next to the bed with a pair of boots for each of us, water bottles, flashlight, knife, cooking and fire kit, and cash inside. Clothing varies with the season. After the Kobe quake I learned the value of keeping a pair of boots in the bag. There was debris everywhere and sandals just don't cut it!

Stitchawl

 

[James 61]

Thanks. They seem to follow me around... :grumpy:
I lived through two of the big ones in California, and the big one here. I REALLY don't like them. I don't know of any other situation where I feel so completely helpless as when the building is swaying back and forth! If we have the time, we try to hunker down next to the fridge, between it and the kitchen counter. Statistics show that most survivors are found in A-shaped spaces formed by large furniture, appliances, or building structure. We do keep a bug-out bag next to the bed with a pair of boots for each of us, water bottles, flashlight, knife, cooking and fire kit, and cash inside. Clothing varies with the season. After the Kobe quake I learned the value of keeping a pair of boots in the bag. There was debris everywhere and sandals just don't cut it!

Stitchawl

That is interesting about A shaped spaces. Thanks for that bit of info. From my limited knowledge of engineering it makes sense since triangles are less likely to bend and distort than squares and rectangles. Interesting that the gov teaches to get under a table or desk during a earthquake. With the exception of some heavy duty work benches most school desks and kitchen tables would likely pancake flat if a heavy object lands on it.

 

[gnius]

If it weren't for a lot of life-saving volunteers, there would be A LOT more dead strollers out there.

I can almost understand people who show up at a nice lodge, good food, comfortable beds, feeling they are still "in" civilization. They go for a "walk" and think it's like the park near their town hall.

But what's with people loaded with technical climbing gear getting caught on a mountain in an "unexpected" storm. What happened to Fossett, did his luck run out, or his overconfidence take over? I won't go for a walk half a mile from home without a high-energy snack with me because I am diabetic, and I don't need to go hypoglycemic -- and have to call for help on my cellphone.

A few friends and I were hiking off trail last year, and we met a park ranger by a huge ice cave we found, that wasn't on the maps that were sold at the hiker registration area.

He told us that they had the cave removed off the map because inexperienced hikers would wander in from the other side of the mountain (that has newbie-friendly blazed trails) and would want to "explore" the 1/4 mile ice-cave... in shorts... without any equipment.

The problem is that the entrance had a natural rock staircase, that was very easy to traverse. The bigger problem is that at the bottom all of that rock is completely covered in ice. So you can get in, but unless you have proper equipment, you're unlikely to be able to get out. The ranger told us they'd have to rescue people several times a month... so even after they removed it from the maps, he would go there nearly every day, because cell phones don't really work very well down there.

He told us not to go in. We told them that we weren't so stupid as to actually go down there, with no experience, and no way to get out.

Here's another story. About two weeks after that last story, we were doing a short but intense day hike. It was a pretty steep area, but had a trail. It took us about 4-5 hours to get to the top... and after a very enjoyable lunch at the summit, we headed down, which took us another 4 hours or so. As we were coming down, it was about 5pm... and very tall dark clouds were rolling in, we met a group of 4 people in shorts and sandals, with .5L bottles of water, no packs, and no gear at all. They asked us how far it was to the summit. We told them. They headed up. We told them that it was going to be dark before they get to the top, and the storm was likely going to come in. They told us that if it started getting dark, or if it would rain, they'd come back. We gave up and headed back.

By the time we got to the car, there was light rain, 20mph winds, and the temperature had fallen from 83-84F to probably less than 70F... and the sun hadn't set yet.

We were looking for "hikers died of exposure 1/2 mile off the trailhead" in the news the next few days.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

You can't help people who haven't got the background to understand what you're telling them. We used to get stories in New York City: don't go jogging alone in the parks after dark. They don't listen. Literally they don't listen: they jog with headphones in the parks after dark.