Got back from the guild show

I'll be filling out my App. for the Guild a.s.a.p. Especially after Frank Centofante personally came to my table at the 01 Blade show and asked me if I was intrested in joining, I said hell yeah. The paperwork arrived the next week. But due to circumstances beyond my control and too much to explain,(some of you here at BF know what I'm talk'in bout), it was put on hold. Soon though, real soon. :) I'm not missing the oppertunity again!!! Courious though, Mr. Clark why would so many makers want to stay away. Honest question:confused:
 
This was my first year as tableholder at the Guild Show and I had a great time. Every maker I talked to was friendly and open. I see myself as the future of the Guild and I plan on doing everything I can to ensure its success in the future.
 
Been thinking all day of how to respond to Al's request. The reason for all this thinking is because there is a whole heck of a lot I COULD say, but what SHOULD I say. Well, it is time for my response. Let me say that this is in no way an attack on any one member of the Guild. But it is based upon my view of the Guild as an organization.

When I first started learning knife making over 13 years ago, I saw THE GUILD as the ultimate goal. If I made it into the Guild one day then I would know that I truly had the "right stuff". Kind of silly but hey I was still a kid.

I knew I wanted to wait to apply until I felt that the quality of my work was high enough. Despite being told time and time again that I was ready; I continued to wait, always wanting to improve and to learn. Unfortunately, before that day ever came, my mentor (Bob Engnath) died. After Bobs death I quit knife making for nearly two years. Shortly after my return to the knife world I felt that I was ready.

So I went back and reviewed all the info on the Guilds website about joining. Before sending for an application I wanted to be sure that I had my sponsors lined up. I started going to the makers that I respected most at that time. After all if they felt I was ready then I must be, right. Well, for the last sponsor I went to the maker I respected most. He has been around as long as the guild, is regularly published in major knife magazines and is generally known for his flawless knives. He had to be a Guild member, no doubt right? Wrong! When I asked if he would be willing to sponsor me he started laughing and said that he would never have anything to do with the Guild. I was shocked and asked him why. Well, I got his full story packed with literally hundreds of horror stories about the Guild. Now this is a man who became my mentor after returning to making. He is a friend and has always had the right advice when needed. But, I just could not believe that all he was saying was true. There had to be some deeper reason for his dislike of the Guild.

So that started my quest for info on the Guild. Over the course of about a year, I made it a point to talk to anyone I knew who was either a current voting member or a past voting member. This list included several founding members. Sure enough, 95% of the things I had heard that first day were confirmed by the makers that I spoke with. The worst stories of all came from a founding member!

I am not going to nor will I go into any details about the stories or who they came from. That would be unfair to the makers who spoke to me in confidence. There is no reason to drag them into something like this.

After receiving all the info that I did, I decided that until things change in the guild I would not have anything to do with it. Things have not changed to date.

Since deciding not to join, I have just sat back and listened to makers over the years. Sometimes just listening and sometimes asking them their views of the Guild. The ones who are members generally don't like the way things are going, but stay in because they feel that the Guild provides them with something. The ones who chose not to join generally have heard the same things I have heard or they simply do not feel that the Guild offers anything they need or want. Sometimes it is a little of both reasons.

If a maker is thinking about joining, I have no problem with it. Every person needs to decide for themselves what is in their best interest. I have never nor will I every actively campaign against the Guild.

The Guild does have some positives in my mind. They seem well organized, they have a great website the aids in promoting their membership and they put on a good show. However, I feel that they have a lot of negatives as well. Some of the top negatives are as follows.

What does the Guild do for its membership? $200 is a lot of money. What do the members get back? Ok, they have a good website. But you can get more exposure on any of the many forums just like this one. These forums are either free or have a minimal fee, and potential customers actively can get to know you instead of just seeing your contact info. Sure they put on a good show. But you have to pay table fees for it. There are so many really good shows, the GUILD Show really has nothing special to offer. You get to put that cool little logo on your business cards and such. Well, some might say that it helps increase your sales. With this I somewhat agree. That little mark does mean to some people that your work automatically of the highest quality. But, I have all the orders I can fill and am actually preparing to stop taking orders. This did not come from a little logo. It came from hard work, exposure on forums and at shows, word of mouth and a little bit of blind luck. You do not need that logo to be validated. The best validation you can get is when your customer calls or writes to tell you how happy they are with your knives.

Way too much infighting! The Guild seems so involved in its own petty power struggles. Or they are busy arguing what makes a knife "custom" or "handmade". Let me ask you this. If the Guild only has the BEST makers then why the need to have them fill out those stupid little cards saying what parts they bought and what methods they use? It would seem that you would just trust your membership to declare this info as needed to their customers. You can't even trust your own members?

Way to cocky! Al's first statement sums it all up.

"First, let me say we are talking about THE Knife makers' Guild show. The members of the Knifemakers Guild comprise the BEST in the world. The knives that are displayed at this show are overall the BEST in the world."

I was not the only person to find this statement VERY off-putting. But this has long been the case. Your either Guild or you just don't rate.

What could the Guild do to chance things around? Stop your silly school yard bickering. Offer your membership REAL benefits. Knock off the cocky attitude.

By real benefits I mean stuff that really matters to today’s makers. How about a group health plan, life insurance or a retirement plan. With the large membership of the Guild you should be able to find some company willing to give a price break on these very important services. Or how about making your show tables free to members? After all you are still charging customers to get in. Or make the show free for customers to enter. Instead you are making money off the membership fees, money off table fees and money off the shows gate!

So just what are you giving back?
 
R.W.

You expressed yourself very well. Unfortunately, you based most of what you said on heresay and innuendo. I've been in the Guild since 1988. Yes, there are problems, as there are in any organization that has an abundance of Type-A individuals. But, it's these individuals that make the Knifemakers' Guild the BEST.

Regards,
AL P
 
A table at Blade is fast approaching table and membership fees for the Guild, and some shows definitely cost more (NY).

One thing the Guild does offer is mediation between a maker and a buyer if the buyer feels slighted or feels a maker has ripped him off. I don't think you get that year-round service when you pay for your Blade table, or your Badger table, or your Gator Show table. I certainly can't remember a Guild member gettting busted out in the GBU section of the forums for taking someone's money and not providing knives, but there have been a fair amount of non-Guild members there.
 
Funny how you edited your post Al.

For those that did not see it before it was changed it basically said that He agreed with many of my comments.

Now its just party line.:rolleyes:

When you get the SAME EXACT information from over 20 differant people, it ceases to be hearsay. And are you saying that a founding member would lie and make stories up? If so, I would hardly call that THE BEST.

Dogman. Good point. But I have never had a problem that was not fully worked out without needing mediation. Are Guild members uncapable of working out their problems on their own?

Your point about the cost of a table at Blade is also valid. But I must say that while the Guild show is good, It really can not compare to Blade.
 
Not all makers are buinessmen, so mediation is a good thing. Some do deals on a handshake, and unfortunately, handshakes do not carry the weight they once did.

Blade does have its advantages right now. It is professionally managed and promoted and its pockets are much deeper than the Guild Show. The Guild is not for profit and relies on membership fees and table dues to pay for the show and advertising. The Guild is managed by its own constituency. Blade comes first. This really has an impact when the Guild Show winds up being 4 weeks after the Blade Show.

The issue about info cards about parts used is a dead one. They were definitely not used this year. Things are tried and discarded, just like with any aspect of life.

The issue about infighting and grumbling brings to mind the concept of those that exert more effort and creativity in trying to avoid work than they would have if they actually worked. Perhaps if more folks spent time trying to promote custom knives and knifemaking and bringing new collectors into the fold, they wouldn't have time to worry about definitions of a custom knife to the nth degree and term limits.

I cannot speak for other's short sightedness, but I do know that I and my customers are going to be the Guild of the future and we are going to do our little part to make it a great organization. Time will tell if we win that battle.
 
Funny how you edited your post Al.

For those that did not see it before it was changed it basically said that He agreed with many of my comments.

Now its just party line.:rolleyes:

Yes R.W., I edited my post. I do have the right to do so, and you have the right to voice YOUR opinion about what it said.
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When you get the SAME EXACT information from over 20 differant people, it ceases to be hearsay.

This is sort of like telling a joke at one end of the bar and by the time it gets to the other end...it's a different joke with a different punchline. What you say is still the opinions and stories of others, and thus heresay.
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And are you saying that a founding member would lie and make stories up? If so, I would hardly call that THE BEST.

Really R.W., did I say that? Why would a Founding Member do that?
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R.W. your signature says you are the President of the California Knifemakers' Association. I'm sure it is a proud and fine organization, and you are a very good president.

You already lead one knifemaking association. My question to you is....why not take the big step and apply for membership in the Knifemakers' Guild. We need men like you. I'll even offer to be one of your sponsers. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be president of the Big one.

Best regards,
Al P
 
R.W.
FWIW, the Guild show more than compares to the Blade show. I've never had a Guild show that I didn't sell out, and I always took the fancier knives. The problem this year was the short time period between the two shows. So far, I've talked to a number of makers that had an outstanding show, even if it was a little slow. Bear in mind that the short time period effects buyers having money, as well as makers getting things made.
There may be some small problems but they will be worked out by the outstanding makers that are in the membership. It has far less problems than most of the other organizations that I have belonged to in my lifetime.
It irks me to see a fellow knifemaker and a non member of the Knifemakers Guild blast this organization that I have been a member of since 1992. I agree with Al that what I see you saying is heresay and innuendos, unless there are names to back it up.:rolleyes:
 
And I agree with Kit and Al. The Guild truly is special. That's why I waited until I thought I was ready to even apply, then suffered through three years of getting my knives inspected at some ungodly early hour in the morning, so I could finally say I was a proud member of the Guild. I am a proud member of the Guild, and wasn't able to be there this year because my wife was in the hospital having a baby.

BTW, there are Guild members who show at the Guild meeting and only one other show each year, and that one other show you only get into by invitation. I'm speaking of invited makers and invited attendees only, so if you want to see knives by some of these makers, like S.R. Johnson, etc., you have to come to the Guild show. And if Steve Johnson wants to say he's the "BEST", he'll get my vote. He wouldn't ever say that but his knives are as close to perfect as anything I've ever seen. That show is really very special.

Ron, I don't think you're gaining anything here. It's easy to criticise.
 
Don't know if I can add much, but when I started making knives the Guild show was my inspiration to get better.My cousin Harry Mendenhall was a pro maker in California and told me not to join the Guild for many of the same reasons R.W. states.Harry has passed away and thankfully my work has gotten a little better.Several members of the Guild who are also in the FKA have asked me to join and I am very much considering it, because I still feel that many people, customers and makers see it as a measuring stick. I know one thing for sure, it's hard to fix any problems from the outside.Now I'm not sure my knives are up to par even though some of my friends think so but I think we'll see. Dave
 
Back to West Florida's original comment.:)

Steven, I have only been to two knife shows where there were custom knife makers, at least a few who belonged to the Guild. My experiences were that with few exceptions, they were great people who were happy to talk about their knives and share them with me even though I may not have purchased an item from them.

Granted, the show (OKCA) is less prestigious. My early impression is that knifemakers are demanding artisans who come in all personality types. I was more shocked with the behavior of some people attending the show. You would not be one of them.
 
Westflorida,
Sorry if we hijacked your thread. It's that A+ personality in us knifemakers :)
I hate you didn't get a friendly smile and a hello from all the tables you visited. That's pretty unusual, but I know there have been times that I wish I was more smiley and friendly. We all have bad days and the stress of a big show is sometimes tremendous, especially for a new probationary member. I ask you to not hold it against us and come for another visit next year.
 
This is my first post to this forum and I need to voice my opinion regarding the Guild Show. I have been a member since 1976. I wanted in then and I still want to be a member. The guild still stands for high quality workmanship, honest dealings with customers, and being able to attend a knife show where all the makers are above average. The Guild hasen't got all the best makers in the world, butt it dosn't have any bad ones period. If you talked to a maker who seemed arrogant it is because he/she has been on there feet for several hours talking to customers and some times we just come off a little short. If you came by my table and even slowed down a little you were greeted and ask to inspect my knives. If you enconter a maker that was less than friendly you should ignore him and move on for ther are 50 more that are more than helpful. I have been ask to judge new applicants work for the past two years and I can tell you first hand, there is no politican here. If your work is above average and the fit and finish is acceptable you will be approved. If you are not approved you will be given an explination. The type and cost of the knife has nothing to do with quality. There are a lot of really good makers out there, that for one reason of another do not wish to be members of the Guild and thats o.k. The Guild will not automatically give you fame or fortune-what it will do is let you go head to head with the best in the business at a closed show for members only
The business meeting went very well and two officers were re-elected to the board. we have almost 500 members and there will always be a few that are not happy with the way things are going. I would love to hear the horry stories about the Guild and possibly shed some insihgt to the complete truth--Feel free to call me or e-mail me at
radeh@bellsout.net THE GUILD IS ALIVE AND WELL--ONLY HAD THE FLU
 
I really appreciate all the makers who posted here, I hope this post did not create a conflict between makers. I have a renewed faith in custom makers.:D :D
 
I'm really glad to hear that Steven. Most makers are pretty nice folks and very helpful to their customers, each other, and almost anyone else who wants to talk about knives. I suspect you might have encountered some who were feeling the combined stresses of a Guild show just too soon after the Blade show in Atlanta, some generally slow business both there and all year long, and maybe just a tiny little bit of a hangover. Guys like Kit and Rade are real party animals and tend to get us more conservative types in trouble when we get around them... :)
 
I like to kick people from under my table then innocently point to the maker next to me.
 
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