Gransfors bruks steel???

[Steve Tall]

I wonder what temperature they temper the axe at.

Isn't it tempered at 195°C for 60 minutes? (That equals 383 degrees F)
I think their translation should say "tempered" instead of "annealed".

Gransfors Bruks gives their heat treatment information, including a quench in cold running water and tempering to result in a
Rc hardness of 57:

"After the forging and the first step of
sharpening the edge, the lower part of the
axe head, the blade, is tempered by war-
ming it to 820°C followed by a quick coo-
ling in cold running water. Then the axe
head is annealed: kept for 60 minutes in
an oven that is 195°C. This relieves the
stress in the steel, built up by the forging
and tempering processes and gives the bit
the desired hardness and toughness. The
hardness of the bit is measured, 57 Rock-
well C..."

from "The Axe Book" (booklet) published by Gransfors Bruks
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MT4YKQUoa1wJ:www.grandforest.us/TheAxeBook.pdf+gransfors+testing&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgrRd3CxU9KopZnx9DtMZ3oMuGOB0dN3Cb2BjOLWY2Y24Qkv1Bs01of2aUozCctyXUKbA_GZ_xpx94YUuSKlmVOSKDp4kuIIUYbFm5J7EZ6UOlqWC_-S75YyXfF6ZwiKCbtETIu&sig=AHIEtbR25OErBwjEnW3ZoGNpGlPz7UhKOw

 

[Bo T]

I wonder what temperature they temper the axe at.

I think what they call anneal is what we call temper - 195 C - 383 F.

 

[Square_peg]

A knife maker will frequently give a blade a series of soaks at low heat to relieve stress. GB is stating that they are doing this because it "relieves the
stress in the steel, built up by the forging and tempering processes". That leads me to believe that the axe has already been hardened and tempered before these soaks take place.

But also, I'm pretty sure that 383° F isn't hot enough to remove the brittleness from a piece of 1055 that has been cold water quenched. That piece would be brittle hard after quench and I can't imagine it being tempered at less than 450° or 500° F.

So both the language and the process lead me to believe that we're missing a step. But I'm not sure.

 

[Bo T]

A knife maker will frequently give a blade a series of soaks at low heat to relieve stress. GB is stating that they are doing this because it "relieves the
stress in the steel, built up by the forging and tempering processes". That leads me to believe that the axe has already been hardened and tempered before these soaks take place.

But also, I'm pretty sure that 383° F isn't hot enough to remove the brittleness from a piece of 1055 that has been cold water quenched. That piece would be brittle hard after quench and I can't imagine it being tempered at less than 450° or 500° F.
So both the language and the process lead me to believe that we're missing a step. But I'm not sure.

That's what I've read. If GB is proprietary it might have some other alloys in it that would lower the temperature for a given hardness. Ordinance steels 4140, 4150 will have HRc values in the mid 50's when tempered between 300 - 400 F. Also, this seems like an edge quench so there is stress built up between the bit and the poll. So the last step could serve multiple purposes - stress relief for the entire head - a final temper for the bit to get the desired hardness.

 

[Chris Grant]

Yes, I am the guy that wrote that.

I recieved an email from Anna-Karin Pettersson at Gransfors

''Our steel is a special axe steel. No one can buy it at the market, it has no SS or SIS sign. The nearest you can come to our steel are steel for tools. It is C (0,55%)''

The 190 C tempering temperature is correct.


Chris

On the British Blades forum, a guy named Chris Grant from Scotland wrote:

"Gransfors steel does not have a grade number, it is a proprietary steel made for them.
It is a plain carbon steel very close to 1055 or EN9, for sure 0.55% Carbon.
I have this info straight from Gransfors."

quoted from
www.britishblades.com/forums/showth...xe-steel-specification-Heat-treating-required

 

[M3mphis]

They are using terms differently than we do. Something must be getting lost in translation. That's my thought anyway.

Gransfors Bruks gives their heat treatment information, including a quench in cold running water and tempering to result in a
Rc hardness of 57:

"After the forging (Usually, annealing and normalizing would fall here in the process.)and the first step of
sharpening the edge, the lower part of the
axe head, the blade, is tempered by war-
ming it to 820°C followed by a quick coo-
ling in cold running water. ("Tempered" is a weird description. We would usually say it is heated to critical temp (around 1500F or 820C) and quenched in water. This is the hardening.)Then the axe
head is annealed: kept for 60 minutes in
an oven that is 195°C. ("Annealed" is weird too. Sounds like the tempering stage to me. 195C is 383F which is a fairly reasonable temp. Although for steel similar to 1055, that seems awefully low and short on time?)This relieves the
stress in the steel, built up by the forging
and tempering processes and gives the bit
the desired hardness and toughness. The
hardness of the bit is measured, 57 Rock-
well C..."

from "The Axe Book" (booklet) published by Gransfors Bruks
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:MT4YKQUoa1wJ:www.grandforest.us/TheAxeBook.pdf+gransfors+testing&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgrRd3CxU9KopZnx9DtMZ3oMuGOB0dN3Cb2BjOLWY2Y24Qkv1Bs01of2aUozCctyXUKbA_GZ_xpx94YUuSKlmVOSKDp4kuIIUYbFm5J7EZ6UOlqWC_-S75YyXfF6ZwiKCbtETIu&sig=AHIEtbR25OErBwjEnW3ZoGNpGlPz7UhKOw

I'm not a metallurgist, but in my opinion there is either massive translation issues in this process description or they just don't want to disclose their proprietary process. JMHO.

 

[Chris Grant]

They are using terms differently than we do. Something must be getting lost in translation. That's my thought anyway.

I'm not a metallurgist, but in my opinion there is either massive translation issues in this process description or they just don't want to disclose their proprietary process. JMHO.

You are dead right, they refer to 'Tempering' in place of hardening and 'Annealing' instead of tempering'.

Somebody had cross-country skiiing to think about.

Ultimately it's a simple steel and a simple heat treatment, and it seems to work...


CG

 

[Double Ott]

Ok, I can buy all of that. And there is a reason I just own there hatchets. It has its place, but like you said (and Square peg) it is very specialized.

I do love to swing my GB Hunters axe. Great balance and just a pleasure to use. I may take it out to cut saplings or small trees for making Bows. And also use it to rough them out. Again a specialized task.
I hope I didn't offend you. I do respect your knowlege and appreciate you shareing it here on these forums.

I own many knives that will accomplish your axe needs. I also own over 100 vintage USA made axes that see use and two Swedes that I don't use. Seems like overkill to buy any axe to make a bow or cut a sapling.

Just my random thoughts, Tom

 

[M3mphis]

You are dead right, they refer to 'Tempering' in place of hardening and 'Annealing' instead of tempering'.

Somebody had cross-country skiiing to think about.

Ultimately it's a simple steel and a simple heat treatment, and it seems to work...


CG

Sorry this is off topic, but I heard that Wetterlings uses an induction hardening process, do you know if that is accurate?
I've heard the spotty heat treat issues blamed on their induction process, but I don't know if that's accurate.

 

[Coloradoman24]

Garry3 -

I appreciate the feedback and questions on the subject. All I can provide is this -

I once owned a GB SFA, GB American Feller, and a GB wildlife Hatchet - and sold all 3. Reasons being the following -

They were nice, I wont lie. Handles, little booklet that came with them, etc. Edges when I got them were sharp as holy cow.

That being said I used em. Fell, chopped, bucked, limbed, threw them into my tractor bucket, on the ground, aka everyday use. Thats when I didnt really like them, almost too specialized, too functional(if that makes sense), too pretty. The feller wasnt a true feller, the SFA was in between a young boys axe and a womens axe, and the wildlife hatchet while sharp as hell was just akward.

That being said I sold all 3 and began using a Flint Edge Michigan pattern on 30 inch handle and a old old Warren on a 30 inch handle as well.

So, what does any of this have to do with gransfors bruks steel?

Few things.

Too thin overall. I can see their products being a nice add on for the camper, but thats about it.

Hand forged. No it isn't

Booklet. My favorite part of love and hate. It is good overall. Booklets only came about on the axe scene when life did not make the axe a necessary component of life - hence the instruction manual was born.

Sheath - gravy, all things considered.

Anytime we want some side by side choppin felling etc - My old Warren 3 lb dayton, C Hammond hatchet, and Collins boys axe will whoop any other modern day manufacturer. The Black Donald likes to get action as well and have never disappointed. And please dont bring the old Flint Edge SB into this, it is itching to go to town and burn it down, so to speak.

And yes, Sagers is about as good as it gets.

I respect new axes from other countries. I just don't use them. They don't compare. I would like to think that someone else should get the frog in the throat from them buying a swedish axe, and not supporting the manufacturing base here in the USA. And I will never support that. One reason I bailed on the Les Stroud axe review.

I agree with every bit my fav axe is a old Dunlap Michigan and a Collins boys axe the both are made for American trees and do a better job. if only we had a company like gb making true American pattern a axes.

 

[garry3]

I own many knives that will accomplish your axe needs. I also own over 100 vintage USA made axes that see use and two Swedes that I don't use. Seems like overkill to buy any axe to make a bow or cut a sapling.

Just my random thoughts, Tom

What makes you think I only cut sapplings?
And how do you know what my needs are?
You asume alot.
Sometimes it may be best to keep your thoughts to yourself.

 

[Double Ott]

What makes you think I only cut sapplings?
And how do you know what my needs are?
You asume alot.
Sometimes it may be best to keep your thoughts to yourself.

OUCH...Touchy Touchy.

 

[garry3]

OUCH...Touchy Touchy.

You were out of line Tom. Still are.

 

[Double Ott]

You were out of line Tom. Still are.

Ouch AGAIN!

 

[DarkWolf777]

Mom!!!!!! The older boys are fighting again!!!

I don't mean to pour gasoline on the fire, but it's cold outside.
My main working axes are Collins, True Temper Kelly, Craftsman & E.C. Simmons. But I have a Sandvik Swede that I'm working on.
Just for kicks I got a Fiskars X15 and am not impressed.
The GBs look great, feel great, are bad azz steel but they just don't cut the same as my vintage blades.
Axes are my new hick-up, I have about 300 knives, half of them could do the job of my little Craftsman hatchet does, the hatchet just feels better.

 

[Square_peg]

Mom!!!!!! The older boys are fighting again!!!

Axes are my new hick-up, I have about 300 knives, half of them could do the job of my little Craftsman hatchet does, the hatchet just feels better.

lol

Send 'em to their rooms.

There are many axe tricks that can be performed by a knife. Likewise there are many knife tricks that can be performed by an axe. But it just makes things so much easier to have both. Big knives aren't fun to use. Batoning sucks. Whittling with a razor sharp axe isn't as nice as whittling with a fairly sharp knife.

 

[thunderstick]

Garry3 -

I appreciate the feedback and questions on the subject. All I can provide is this -

I once owned a GB SFA, GB American Feller, and a GB wildlife Hatchet - and sold all 3. Reasons being the following -

They were nice, I wont lie. Handles, little booklet that came with them, etc. Edges when I got them were sharp as holy cow.

That being said I used em. Fell, chopped, bucked, limbed, threw them into my tractor bucket, on the ground, aka everyday use. Thats when I didnt really like them, almost too specialized, too functional(if that makes sense), too pretty. The feller wasnt a true feller, the SFA was in between a young boys axe and a womens axe, and the wildlife hatchet while sharp as hell was just akward.

That being said I sold all 3 and began using a Flint Edge Michigan pattern on 30 inch handle and a old old Warren on a 30 inch handle as well.

So, what does any of this have to do with gransfors bruks steel?

Few things.

Too thin overall. I can see their products being a nice add on for the camper, but thats about it.

Hand forged. No it isn't

Booklet. My favorite part of love and hate. It is good overall. Booklets only came about on the axe scene when life did not make the axe a necessary component of life - hence the instruction manual was born.

Sheath - gravy, all things considered.

Anytime we want some side by side choppin felling etc - My old Warren 3 lb dayton, C Hammond hatchet, and Collins boys axe will whoop any other modern day manufacturer. The Black Donald likes to get action as well and have never disappointed. And please dont bring the old Flint Edge SB into this, it is itching to go to town and burn it down, so to speak.

And yes, Sagers is about as good as it gets.

I respect new axes from other countries. I just don't use them. They don't compare. I would like to think that someone else should get the frog in the throat from them buying a swedish axe, and not supporting the manufacturing base here in the USA. And I will never support that. One reason I bailed on the Les Stroud axe review.

I pretty much agree that for a work axe on American trees, American vintage work axes are superior.

For bushcraft or camp axes the mid to small GBs are nice tools and have more practical value. They essentially are a blend of an axe and a hawk. The thinner cheeks make for a lighter carry. I went thru the European axe phase and came back out of it again. I personally believe the Wetterling is superior to the GBs for all-round axe-work usage due to its thicker cheeks for durability and splitting. I have been very fortunate in that I bought my Wetterlings right after GB bought them and their QC was high and their prices still low. The two I have are not very far behind the GBs in fit and finish while being more rugged. The GBs and Wetterlings that I like best are their belt or backpack size axes. I have a Wetterlings mini that I really like. The GB Wildlife hatchet is decent also as its better than a hawk and lighter than a traditional axe of that handle length.

However my favorite all-round belt axes have a 18-19" handle and are my rehandled and reworked Council Tool Hudson Bay axe and the small Collins I bought from my grandpa. Either of these 18-19" belt axes would be my 1st choice for camping or trekking when an axe will need to be carried and regularly used. From these two axes, my selection would be the Hudson if I was utilizing it more for a fashioning tool because of the flatter cheeks, but if it is to primarily process wood, the Collins with a higher center and smaller bit will often get the nod. Many people cannot utilize an 18-19" handle effectively with one or two hands, but if you have been a carpenter (or tradesman) in your early years and developed the ability to use a full length framing hammer, you can also utilize the full length of this handle very effectively with one hand, and still have the very occasional option of the two-hand usage. This length handle gives the maximum power of a one hand swing and yet can be choked up on for finer work without the handle getting in the way, while still being small enough to be carried from the belt.

If axe usage is relegated to small, infrequent tasks I'll carry my mini Wetterlings for weight reduction. I'm sure though that a small vintage boy scout type axe would work as well. This axe often is in my backpack when hunting.

The one 36" handled Euro axe that I really love is my Fiskars splitting axe--that thing is amazing what it can split for its weight, due to its superior geometry.

 

[Shotgun]

I own many knives that will accomplish your axe needs. I also own over 100 vintage USA made axes that see use and two Swedes that I don't use. Seems like overkill to buy any axe to make a bow or cut a sapling.

Just my random thoughts, Tom

A hatchet removes material much better than a knife for what he's doing. I've done it with a knife and it's no fun. With a hatchet the weight of the head is the force and your hand mostly just guides the tool. With a knife your arm is applying the force to make up for the lack of weight which means your swinging harder. A hatchet allows for much greater accuracy and control. It's similar to tapping a paver into place. It's much easier to do it with a large sledge than a small hammer. It seems overkill until you try it.

 

[garry3]

A hatchet removes material much better than a knife for what he's doing. I've done it with a knife and it's no fun. With a hatchet the weight of the head is the force and your hand mostly just guides the tool. With a knife your arm is applying the force to make up for the lack of weight which means your swinging harder. A hatchet allows for much greater accuracy and control. It's similar to tapping a paver into place. It's much easier to do it with a large sledge than a small hammer. It seems overkill until you try it.

Hey Shotgun, Do you get a permit to cut your Yew there? I have made a couple trips over there to get Yew permits. First time I went I could get a district wide permit. Last time it was sight specific. It's been awhile just wonding what it is like now. We have it here in Idaho also but no permits to cut.
And ya, I make more than sapling bows and I cut more than just for bowyer purposes. A knife? Ignorance.
Sorry about the off topic.

 

[M3mphis]

Hey Shotgun, Do you get a permit to cut your Yew there? I have made a couple trips over there to get Yew permits. First time I went I could get a district wide permit. Last time it was sight specific. It's been awhile just wonding what it is like now. We have it here in Idaho also but no permits to cut.
And ya, I make more than sapling bows and I cut more than just for bowyer purposes. A knife? Ignorance.
Sorry about the off topic.

Yew in Idaho?? Is that up in the Clearwater or something?